Churchill was "a white supremacist and a mass murderer” says SNP MSP

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  • Green MSP Ross Greer and James Cleverly on Churchill legacy

    A Green MSP repeated his social media quote on BBC2's Politics Live that Sir Winston Churchill was "a white supremacist and a mass murderer”.

    I caught this at lunch time and was shocked by what this so called MSP was saying.

    James Cleverly, a conservative MP who is half Senegali, really put him in his place, but does anyone agree with this SNP twat who looks like he only started shaving recently?

    Greer made mention of the many people who died in Bengal from starvation during WW2, and, according to him, that is one of his main charges against Churchill that he let those people starve. But Cleverly pointed out that there was no deliberate attempt to starve Bengal. We just needed the supplies for ourselves as we were fighting for our own lives and parts of our empire did suffer as a result.

    Anyone agree with "Mr" Greer?

  • I caught this at lunch time and was shocked by what this so called MSP was saying.

    James Cleverly, a conservative MP who is half Senegali, really put him in his place, but does anyone agree with this SNP twat who looks like he only started shaving recently?

    Greer made mention of the many people who died in Bengal from starvation during WW2, and, according to him, that is one of his main charges against Churchill that he let those people starve. But Cleverly pointed out that there was no deliberate attempt to starve Bengal. We just needed the supplies for ourselves as we were fighting for our own lives and parts of our empire did suffer as a result.

    Anyone agree with "Mr" Greer?

    No, he's an obnoxious arsehole, if I remember this part of the war correctly , the only way to get supplies into that part of India was to run the gauntlet of Japanese subs, ships and aircraft and we didn't have the spare ships.

  • Not only was he fighting for our lives but for Europe’s as well, he knew all about what was happening regarding the (final solution) but what could he do.

    All’s fair in love and war.

    To call him a white supremacist (That was the point they wanted to get across) is par for the course now, it’s just a part of the jigsaw which intends to erode my past present and future which I referred to in a post which was deleted.

  • This 24 year old little arsehole was just on with Piers Morgan , the voters in Scotland ought to be ashamed of themselves for ELECTING this little prick into office , what , at 24 has he ever done ?

  • Churchills biggest flaw (in the eyes of Scots nationalists) is that he was English! I get sick and tired of the anti-English rhetoric from the SNP and other Scots nationalists. They have so much hatred you can feel it, even over the internet, and they hypocritically call Brexiters racist!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • it’s just a part of the jigsaw which intends to erode my past present and future which I referred to in a post which was deleted.

    It's not deleted, just hidden. The post was mainly off topic as you were talking about a case of discrimination in the fire service, but never provided a link to the news story. I can restore the post and move it to the immigration/race thread, if you wish.

    Please try to stick to the topic of the thread.

  • Not only was he fighting for our lives but for Europe’s as well, he knew all about what was happening regarding the (final solution) but what could he do.

    Ah, now that is interesting and I've have many a debate with people in the past on this specific point.

    The Germans were puiting in resources and manpower to carry out their extermination of the Jews, but the manpower wasn't so great, that if it they were "freed" up, it would've made a difference in the outcome of the war. Therefore, on this specific point, I think Churchill should've ordered the RAF to bomb the tracks and perhaps even the trains themselves going to the concentration camps.

    This 24 year old little arsehole was just on with Piers Morgan , the voters in Scotland ought to be ashamed of themselves for ELECTING this little prick into office , what , at 24 has he ever done ?

    I've never would've thought he was 24, he looks about 15/16.

    Churchills biggest flaw (in the eyes of Scots nationalists) is that he was English! I get sick and tired of the anti-English rhetoric from the SNP and other Scots nationalists. They have so much hatred you can feel it, even over the internet, and they hypocritically call Brexiters racist!

    Tut. Tut. :) We're all creeping off topic here.

    The thread isn't about Scottish nationalism, lets try to keep on subject.

  • Churchill was trying to stop an actual white supremacist. he had to make sacrifices to save the lives of millions of minority members

  • I agree I went off topic.

    The bombing of the train tracks would have made no difference as it was a mass objective operating on so many fronts hundreds of miles apart.

    We could not spare the bombers on a regular enough bases, the trains would have been running a few days later.

  • I think that's a valid point, Revo. The concentration camps were spread all over Eastern Europe, so it wasn't just a case of one bombing run and they're all destroyed and as you say, the Germans could've easily rebuilt them. They had enough "free" labour.:(

  • I caught this at lunch time and was shocked by what this so called MSP was saying.

    James Cleverly, a conservative MP who is half Senegali, really put him in his place, but does anyone agree with this SNP twat who looks like he only started shaving recently?

    Greer made mention of the many people who died in Bengal from starvation during WW2, and, according to him, that is one of his main charges against Churchill that he let those people starve. But Cleverly pointed out that there was no deliberate attempt to starve Bengal. We just needed the supplies for ourselves as we were fighting for our own lives and parts of our empire did suffer as a result.

    Anyone agree with "Mr" Greer?

    well he would say that, wouldnt he. The SNP is just a bunch of english hating fascist, and you expect nothing but vitriol and hate from them. UK labour isnt much better, c.f David Lammys recent remarks.

    On the other hand, historically the SNP actually IS a fascist party, and its leaders were arrestedi nWW2 as aprecaution becuase of thier nazi sympathies. And recently, it turns out the Chandelier hangingin Nicola Sturgeons office was inb fact stolen nazi war loot. The nazis looted itin Paris, and then abandoned it i na Paris street when the allies arrived and they had to exit pdq. It was picked up by Lord Bute, smuggled back to Scotland and hung in his house, Bute Hall, which is now the SNP's offices. The French have demanded it back, but have apprarantly been told to rotate on it.

  • I agree I went off topic.

    The bombing of the train tracks would have made no difference as it was a mass objective operating on so many fronts hundreds of miles apart.

    We could not spare the bombers on a regular enough bases, the trains would have been running a few days later.

    The Transport Plan made a huge difference. Modern warfare defence relied on being able to move troops and supplies to any point on the front that was being attacked .

    Because of the Transport Plan, for example, nearly 1000 ME262 jet fighters werecaught in railway traucks being transported to airfields , and thus destroyed ot rendered useless. Had those been in the air on D Day, they would have wiped out the RAF, since, as a je tfighter, they were vastly superior to the Spirfire, or Hurricane, and even the Mosquito in terms of speed and air performance.

    Hundreds of bridges and tunnels were destroyed, bringing the rail and road networks top a standsill. Every single Marshalling Yard in France, which are vital to frieght movement, were destroyed

    A German Air Ministry (RLM) report of 13 June 1944 stated: "The raids...have caused the breakdown of all main lines; the Coastal Defences have been cut off from the supply bases in the interior...producing a situation which threatens to have serious consequences." and that although "transportation of essential supplies for the civilian population have been completely...large scale strategic movement of German troops by rail is practically impossible at the present time and must remain so while attacks are maintained at their present intensity"

    So, sorry, but your assertion is bollox, The Transport Plan was vital to Overlord, as it crippled the German war Machine, and stopped them reinfocing the beachheads.

    As for'we could spare the planes' this also is not a applicible statement. Harris was instructed to condust the Transport Plan, at the same time as Spatz was ordered to conduct the Oil Plan. he had no choice.

    You might be intersted in this:

    This is the layout of the Target Indicator Board at High Wycombe 3 months before VE Day. Notice the massive section on Transport even then

    Heres the Trappes Marshalling Yard after the RAF visited in in 1945

    rh2103.jpg

  • It's a long story I'm not relating now, but I read a hugely detailed history of the bomber war, and in the closing months the bombing of rail nodes was vital because it choked the supply lines of troops and equipment to the eastern front (the western allies knew the Soviets would get to Berlin first). One of those nodes was in Dresden, but thanks to Goebbels propaganda that still prevails today, that raid was portrayed as a deliberate civilian target to enrage the German people into resisting.

    If fact other raids cost far more lives, they just got less publicity.

    If fact thousands of the deaths were due to inadequate provision of air raid shelters.

    It's easy to be sanctimonious now (esp for lefties, you notice), but until you've been in years of severe food shortages with an aggressive power 30 miles away wanting to subjugate you and your way of life, you have no idea how that radically changes your priorities. " Were you There?~ one pilot asked today's critics "If you weren't there, you DON'T know what it was like, so SHUT UP".

    The closing months were a race against time to cut off the head of the snake before V3s and/or nukes forced the allies to sue for peace and let the nazi regime continue in power.

    Anyone who tries to demonize Churchill and the Air Marshalls for 'murder' is an idiot. They brought down the most hostile genocidal fanatics in history. They destroyed an expansionist totalitarian dystopia.

  • Yes and one of my Uncles my Dad's brother was part of it he served in Bomber Command and was one of the lucky ones that got back home

  • 'Acceptable losses' for any bomber raid were 5%. You were signed on for a 20 operation tour. You do the maths.

    (and many did 2+ tours)

  • 'Acceptable losses' for any bomber raid were 5%. You were signed on for a 20 operation tour. You do the maths.

    (and many did 2+ tours)

    You have to differentiate between the policy & men who carried it out .

    As you have pointed out Bomber Command was the most dangerous posting & the bravery of those guys cannot be questioned.

    From what I understand the area bombing policy of Harris was not without its critics at the time

    but given the inaccuracies of bombing at that time it seems it was the only way to take the fight to Germany.

  • Having read the entire history of the bomber war mission by mission, I do not recall any 'area bombing'.

    Yes accuracy was v poor early on, so collateral damage of areas around industrial targets was high, but industrial targets they were.

    To this day, shards of Goebbels propaganda remain that the allies were 'Terror Fliers' with orders to kill civilians - this resulted in many allied air crew being lynched by german civilians late in the war.

    The books also highlight another common fallacy - that Harris, the designated figure of hate, was not responsible for the policy decisions at all.

    He believed destroying cities would bring a quick surrender, but Harris was in charge of bomber command (although only from 1942, so missed the era of highly inaccurate bombing), but bomber command was only one part of the RAF and wider armed forces, and had to do as it was told. It is an error to think Harris could bomb whatever he wanted, and did so. Harris did not get to be 'in charge' of the entire RAF until 1946. Before then he was under Marshal Portal, in competition for priority with Fighter commander Park, and often orders came direct from Churchill.

    Be careful when looking any of this up - the history of the war has been badly polluted by the lies and propaganda of anti-war fanatics and political extremists who seek to demonize capitalism.

    In contrast, it was well documented that Hitler wanted to force surrender by destroying our morale with terror, destruction, fire and death - frankly, in the face of a flagrant terror-war-monger, we were incredibly restrained not to do the same it his people, esp at the end of the war when they were near to breaking. Rather, we concentrated on shortening the war by eroding their industry.

    It's no use preaching on a high horse about the war. When you are cowering in a shelter while your home is being destroyed and friends are being murdered, afraid of poison gas and constantly hungry thanks to rationing, your inclination to treat the enemy cordially evaporates.

    If we'd adopted a policy of no bombing if any civilians were endangered, we'd have left their tank, aircraft, submarine and terror-weapon factories to operate unhindered (and the nazis would have housed civilian hostages in every one to ensure even 100% accurate strikes would kill innocents).

    It is SO sad that so many fought such a huge tyranny, and now only a lifetime later are demonised for doing so.

  • Dresden is always cited as the straw that broke the morality camel’s back - so to speak.

    Personally I think that after 5 years the war had to be ended one way or another. The total destruction of the enemy whilst not the optimal strategy or even preferable strategy was in reality the only strategy that could be achieved in the short term. What other options were available given the weapons and delivery techniques of the day.

    The Nazis were developing rockets so we only had a short window of opportunity to finish them before they took the technological upper hand.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

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