Israel and Palestine

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  • I believe we may now see moves for the Israelis to gain full control of the city.

    The problem there is that there are sites that are holy to Islam that are currently under Jordanian protection. (via Ministry of Awqaf in Amman) There is also the Church of the Nativity that is in the Palestinian quarter. It's a very tangled web.

    I had the opportunity a few years ago of visiting Jerusalem during a quiet period but there were still plenty of armed guards especially at the various holy sites. We weren't able to visit the Dome of the Rock but were able to view it from the Mount of Olives as pictured in the wiki link. I have my own stitched together panorama.

  • I'm interested in history, so would probably like to go there, but did you enjoy it Heero?

    Is that Jordanian protection guaranteed and underpinned by the UN? I've never heard of that to be honest. So, basically any moves on the rest of Jerusalem could destroy Israel's relationship with Jordan, about the only country the Israelis have a good relationship with in that region.

  • The only reason I said that, was that the Israeli solders who do most of the killing of the Palestinians are themselves Arab Israelis, full citizens of Israel, but you are correct to question my assumption that both sides in Israel both orthodox and non-orthodox will welcome swarms of Palestinians into their midsts, considering decades of animosity between them. I think I'll withdraw that remark wile I can!:)

    One solution would be to stick to the original agreement of the Balfour agreement and all Palestinians go and live in Jordan, there are many there now, except the Jordanians don't won't them.

    With this embassy move, to my mind, Trump is deliberately trying to put a wind under things and after yesterday's violence, noone can doubt there is momentum now for something different to happen.

    I think Trump is right to veer away Band-Aid solutions or plastering over yawning cracks. It's a political version of creative destruction.

    Palestinians have become the mongrels of the Middle East, which makes them persona non grata in most Arab countries and even Jordan has lost patience with them. Of course, it's the Hamas faction that has handicapped Palestinians' chances and that is so sad for the other Palestinians who comport themselves with much dignity and intelligence. When the United Nations accommodated ultra Zionism by displacing Palestine to create a Jewish homeland, the seeds of hatred by Palestinians were deeply planted. The unremitting expansion of Israeli new settlements into Palestinians' non-sovereign homeland has obviously fanned the flames of that hatred. Yet how else was Israel to grow and flourish with such a small amount of territory awarded by the UN? The UN gave Zionists a poisoned chalice. The Jewish homeland might have flourished more easily in Texas, Alaska or Florida but the Zionists donned their orthodox hat and decreed that the Old Testament provided a covenant for it to be Israel generally and Jerusalem specifically.

    My earlier posting about the failure of conspicuous Jews to assimilate in non-Jewish countries, labelled as anti-Semitism, begs the question as to why this hasn't become such a burning issue with Muslims in Britain. After all, Jews represent just 0.5% of the British population and they have remained at that level from 2001 to 2011 while Muslims have increased from 3% to 5% over that same period - and undoubtedly in more recent years have increase even further through immigration and an above-average birthrate. This may sound ridiculous but I think the reason why Jews get picked on is "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers" syndrome: a fearful wariness of Jews who, at a casual glance, look almost like us non-Jews, but on closer examination are different in behaviour and attitudes. With Muslims the differences are far more obvious and therefore less creepy. The detestation or hatred, when it exists, is more clear-cut, out in the open; we know what it is we dislike about Muslims: that an unidentifiable number of them want kill infidels or are receptive or manipulable to such "radicalisation" and that a greater number of them want Islamic values to be in the ascendancy or at the very least to legitimise Sharia Law in this, their host country. So we sort of "know our enemy", who is threatening the very fabric of British life style and values, and that is a simpler kind of hatred, one without fear of the unknown.

    By contrast, in the case of Jews, their "threat" is being good at money and trade, associated with gaining power and influence, which creates envy and resentment. It's bad enough that that there is a pareto distribution of wealth (the 80-20 rule) but when it is believed that Jews account for so much of that skewness the envy turns to suspicion and hatred, fuelling anti-Semitism. It is therefore hardly surprising that anti-Semitism flourishes in a political party devoted to the drastic re-distribution of wealth.

  • but did you enjoy it Heero?

    Yes, really interesting to actually go to the places like the Church of the Nativity, the wailing wall, church of the Holy Sepulchre. One thing that did sort of shock me was to see real beggars in the city streets dressed in rags unlike our own professional "beggars"

    This was part of a 3 day trip that we did from Cyprus that also included a visit to the Pyramids, Sphinx and the Egyptian museum in Cairo, about 15 years ago when things were quite settled, unlike now.

  • I think Trump is right to veer away Band-Aid solutions or plastering over yawning cracks. It's a political version of creative destruction.

    Palestinians have become the mongrels of the Middle East, which makes them persona non grata in most Arab countries and even Jordan has lost patience with them. Of course, it's the Hamas faction that has handicapped Palestinians' chances and that is so sad for the other Palestinians who comport themselves with much dignity and intelligence. When the United Nations accommodated ultra Zionism by displacing Palestine to create a Jewish homeland, the seeds of hatred by Palestinians were deeply planted. The unremitting expansion of Israeli new settlements into Palestinians' non-sovereign homeland has obviously fanned the flames of that hatred. Yet how else was Israel to grow and flourish with such a small amount of territory awarded by the UN? The UN gave Zionists a poisoned chalice. The Jewish homeland might have flourished more easily in Texas, Alaska or Florida but the Zionists donned their orthodox hat and decreed that the Old Testament provided a covenant for it to be Israel generally and Jerusalem specifically.

    The thing with Hamas is and I'm not defending them in anyway, but they provide schools, jobs and even food. If you're a Palestinian living in Gaza and you want to "get on" with life (yes, I know the irony...) then Hamas is the only player in town.

    This might sound a pro-Zionsim opinion here, but the Arabs had so much land and as there was the historical context for Jews living in that region and with the aftermath of the holocaust, what was the UN to do? If the Americans were going to offer Texas, they would have done it. Zero chance, in my opinion.

    The thing with plasters is they do prevent minor wounds from getting infected and spreading. If you remove the plasters, then the blood might flow, literally in this case.

  • Yes, really interesting to actually go to the places like the Church of the Nativity, the wailing wall, church of the Holy Sepulchre. One thing that did sort of shock me was to see real beggars in the city streets dressed in rags unlike our own professional "beggars"


    This was part of a 3 day trip that we did from Cyprus that also included a visit to the Pyramids, Sphinx and the Egyptian museum in Cairo, about 15 years ago when things were quite settled, unlike now.

    That's a seriously good holiday! About the only thing missing from that list is Petra.


  • The thing with Hamas is and I'm not defending them in anyway, but they provide schools, jobs and even food. If you're a Palestinian living in Gaza and you want to "get on" with life (yes, I know the irony...) then Hamas is the only player in town.

    This might sound a pro-Zionsim opinion here, but the Arabs had so much land and as there was the historical context for Jews living in that region and with the aftermath of the holocaust, what was the UN to do? If the Americans were going to offer Texas, they would have done it. Zero chance, in my opinion.

    The thing with plasters is they do prevent minor wounds from getting infected and spreading. If you remove the plasters, then the blood might flow, literally in this case.

    You make a good point about slicing off a small amount of surplus land from 2-3 Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan). Looking at the map it would be quite a puzzle of options that would require land swaps, where all parties retain a coastline. Israel would also need to pick up some piece of the land swap to accommodate their natural expansion in a way that no longer encroaches on the Palestinians. All quite do-able. Leave it to the UN - shouldn't take longer than 10-15 years! By which time the Middle East will be a nuclear wasteland.

  • You make a good point about slicing off a small amount of surplus land from 2-3 Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan)

    What I meant was that there was a two state solution in the 1940s, one state for the Arabs and one for the Jews. If the Arabs had kept to the agreement, there would be a Palestinian state today. Instead the Hashemite tribe claimed the state for itself and renamed it Jordan. Although, that wouldn't have solved the problem about what to do with the Arabs who refused to leave their land and homes in West Palestine aka Israel.

    If someone ever tries to forcibly evict you, you'd fight. I don't blame the Palestinians for their behaviour. They were not the cause of the holocaust and yet have suffered its after effects, the same as the Jews have.

    You cannot have two tribes sharing the same land. It doesn't work. It never has, it never will. I think the solution is in Jordan's hands, but the king has his own little fiefdom and seems happy to stick to the status quo.

  • The Duke of Cambridge is spending the day in Jordan as he continues his royal trip to the Middle East.

    Prince William visited a Roman archaeological site where he met young people helped by a charity refugee programme.

    His wife, Catherine, visited the ancient ruins during the 1980s.

    Later, the prince, 36, will become the first royal to make an official visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories.

    A blatantly political move by our government me thinks, aimed at Trump and his recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.

    • Staff Notice

    I'm surprised things didn't flare up badly when Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital, but this does now look like a serious escalation from the Palestinian militants and we know how the Israelis will respond.

    I wonder how much longer a "Gaza strip" will even exist for, if this sort of thing keeps happening.

  • Increasingly it will be judged by neighbouring states that there isn't enough room in the Middle East for Israel and there will be a war. Until that tipping point Israel carries on expanding its geo-sovereignty based on the threat or use of their massive firepower.

    Meanwhile Palestinian's hatred of Israel - remaining unshakeable ever since the birth of Israel was allowed by the UN to displace Palestinian occupation - which is all the excuse Israel needs to adopt a hard line and decide they may as well be hung for a sheep as lamb.

    The fact that Netanyahu is confident his intended Hard Zionism policy is a vote-winner speaks volumes about the attitudes of Israeli citizens.

    The fact is that if anything I said above came from the office of the Labour Party, the usual howls of anti-semitism would resume, along with the wandering off of any remaining wondering Jews, until the Labour Party can promote itself to the electorate as, if not "pure aryan", then at least "semitic-free"!

    Has anyone ever wondered why, of all the religions there are in the world, only Judaism requires its very own homeland? And in suggesting an answer give thought to cause & effects.

  • I agree about the tipping point and it seems that Iran, in particular, is the most obvious candidate to face off against Israel. As to the last point, the Muslims have Saudi Arabia with Mecca and Medina as their holy land and I guess for Christians, beyond the holy sites in Israel itself, I guess Rome would be considered the centre of Christianity.

  • Religions are all used as excuses for war and territorial aggrandizement. They preach hatred and violence against infidels so they can force people to take up arms against one another and this sort of aggro can be made to last for long periods of time on the flimsiest of excuses.

    The day religions lose theocratic power might be a great day for humanity but one has to bear in mind that humans tend to transform failing belief systems into new ones based on a few tenets of whatever worked last time. New clothes, new emperors and the whole thing starts again. Marxism did this rather well and the new age far left veggie liberal fascists appear to be the next step in the circus act.

  • You would think that if there is a God as described in all the religious documents then he/she would not allow these various factions to fight and war with each other

    But then religion is not about faith, it is about power

  • Religions are all used as excuses for war and territorial aggrandizement. They preach hatred and violence against infidels so they can force people to take up arms against one another and this sort of aggro can be made to last for long periods of time on the flimsiest of excuses.

    The day religions lose theocratic power might be a great day for humanity but one has to bear in mind that humans tend to transform failing belief systems into new ones based on a few tenets of whatever worked last time. New clothes, new emperors and the whole thing starts again. Marxism did this rather well and the new age far left veggie liberal fascists appear to be the next step in the circus act.

    I agree, but I'm kind of hoping the veggie fascists, as you call them (:)) will not kill people in their millions like the religions have done, but as you mention food there, I do think the conflicts of the future will still be over basics like food and especially water.

  • You would think that if there is a God as described in all the religious documents then he/she would not allow these various factions to fight and war with each other

    But then religion is not about faith, it is about power

    Exactly.

    I have a cousin who married into the Mormons and will not do various things because of her religion like drink tea. Yet, the Mormon leaders in Salt Lake City have been photographed drinking caffeinated drinks, so I don't see what the problem is.

    It's all about power and controlling the sheep and until the sheep, aka people, break free of religion, this crap will go on. But as LW wisely tells us, something else will likely take its place.

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