Israel and Palestine

  • The problem with the Palestinian areas, is whether they were ever a nation to begin with, let alone dystopian. They're certainly not pleasant places.


    Thinking about this a bit, what Trump is doing is "forcing" things, you use the term moving forward. Perhaps at the end of this current mess, things will be moved forward, one way or the other.


    Either an entire people starve or disintegrate into mass violence and/or, they attack the Israelis en mass, thus resulting in a overwhelming response against them. Perhaps this may then persuade the Arab states (the Palestinians are Arabs) to open up their lands to them to enable relocation. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Palestinians may choose to do a peace deal with the Israelis.


    Since Trump's move over Israel, Abbas has been frothing at the mouth and he was the last moderate leader there.

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  • I suppose Abbas has to foam at the mouth just to avoid losing votes to Hamas


    Did I REALLY use the term "moving forward"?. Oh gawd! I'm going to add it to my list for verbal vaccination , which already includes "no problem", "let me be perfectly clear", "lessons learned", "pressure", "more funding", "best deal for Britain" and, Jon Snow's favourite way of dealing with anything complex, "....and all the rest of it".


    I think you're right in questioning whether Palestine was ever a normal functioning nation to begin with. Certainly they weren't thought so by other Arab nations and still today other Arab nations are reluctant to grant citizenship to displaced/refugee Palestinians.


    Quite possibly the reason why Palestinians continue to impose peace deal conditions which they know Israel will find impossible to go along with (eg a shared state, a shared Jerusalem or a divided up Jerusalem) is because, deep down, they don't want a peace deal because they know they would fail to hold up their end in terms of enterprise, making a living, civil order and social integration. For too many Palestinians I fear that nihilism is their only game in town. It is a game which will eventually end in self-destruction. Which is simply taking vaccination to its ultimate extreme

    Now called casablanca.

  • I think most people, including the Palestinians, just want to get on with their lives, it's only a few who turn to extremism. But if the Palestinians continue to be blocked where they can live or work and see ever encroaching Israeli settlements around them, then more will turn to extremism.


    I am very surprised things are so quiet from this part of the world following Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.


    Since 1947, this region has been in perpetual stasis. There has never been peace or stability between the Palestinians and Israelis, so perhaps rather than self destructing, the Palestinians may sue for the best deal they can get.


    Trump's move on blocking some American aid to the UN which funds and feeds some UN aid programmes in the Palestinian areas was interesting. Again, moving things "along" but whether they be "forward," time will tell.

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  • Well, the day is almost here. The Americans move their embassy to Jerusalem tomorrow amid rising tensions between Palestinians and Israelis. Hamas has called on the wall dividing Jewish and Palestinians areas to be breached.


    If Trump is right with this embassy move, this could force the Palestinians into a permanent peace with Israel. If he's wrong, the blood will flow down the streets.


    The 14th May is the 70th anniversary of Israel's founding aka independence from our control after their own terrorist attacks against the British at the time.


    One person's terrorists is another's freedom fighters.

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  • Trump's daughter has just opened the American embassy in Jerusalem, right after her dad sent a recorded congratulatory message declaring Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.


    Almost 50 Palestinians dead, but I was expecting it to be much worse.

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  • Almost 50 Palestinians dead, but I was expecting it to be much worse.

    The Israelies will never let them come back en-masse to their old lands, they'll just have to face that. Unfortunately the leaders whip up the youngsters into such a lather that they don't care if they get themselves killed trying to storm the border.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

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  • I think ultimately, half the Palestinians will "accept" things as they are and eventually become full blown Israeli citizens, but the other half won't. How Israel deals with that group, is what will define the country for generations to come. If they do to them, what was done to the Jews in WW2, they'll be no forgiveness for Israel. I expect a mass expulsion at some point.

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  • I think ultimately, half the Palestinians will "accept" things as they are and eventually become full blown Israeli citizens, but the other half won't. How Israel deals with that group, is what will define the country for generations to come. If they do to them, what was done to the Jews in WW2, they'll be no forgiveness for Israel. I expect a mass expulsion at some point.

    What if Israel doesn't grant acquiescent Palestinians full citizenship? What if Israel doesn't want a subgroup that is fundamentally and resentfully out-of-sorts with Judaism and which has a birthrate 30% higher than that of Israelis, which thereby will dilute and eventually replace Israel's whole "reason for being"?


    A great many Israelis don't mind permitting a soft permissive Zionism but only when it is they who are exercising that permissiveness. Their comfort zone is the common denominator of being Jewish. As the Palestinian subgroup increases its presence, the Israelis will close ranks and be united against a common hazard.


    This territorial imperative is a fundamental law in anthropology and is at its fiercest when based on a religion that underpins a way of life. From time immemorial Jews have overtly differentiated themselves from non-Jews, which has made assimilation in a non-Jewish world uneasy, both for Jews and non-Jews. In that situation, it is inevitable that the host country will call the shots. Germany and Russia horrifically demonstrated that a century or two ago; and of course it goes back through the ages.


    The seemingly atavistic pursuit of identity and affiliation needs to become less extreme. The very idea of pursuing an identity and affiliation that is so tightly homogeneous - and so overt - to the point where such people end up needing their very own country to survive is, by definition, anti-assimilating and consequently a threat to themselves and ultimately a threat to world order.

    Now called casablanca.

  • What if Israel doesn't grant acquiescent Palestinians full citizenship?

    The only reason I said that, was that the Israeli solders who do most of the killing of the Palestinians are themselves Arab Israelis, full citizens of Israel, but you are correct to question my assumption that both sides in Israel both orthodox and non-orthodox will welcome swarms of Palestinians into their midsts, considering decades of animosity between them. I think I'll withdraw that remark while I can!:)


    One solution would be to stick to the original agreement of the Balfour agreement and all Palestinians go and live in Jordan, there are many there now, except the Jordanians don't won't them.


    With this embassy move, to my mind, Trump is deliberately trying to put a wind under things and after yesterday's violence, no one can doubt there is momentum now for something different to happen.

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  • What are people's opinions about the future of Jerusalem? Is the American embassy move a sign to the Israelis to unite Jerusalem under Israel's control and drive out the Palestinians from East Jerusalem?


    If it's violent now, that will cause a bloodbath.


    Looking at the words and body language of the Americans and Israelis at the embassy opening yesterday, I believe we may now see moves for the Israelis to gain full control of the city.

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  • I believe we may now see moves for the Israelis to gain full control of the city.

    The problem there is that there are sites that are holy to Islam that are currently under Jordanian protection. (via Ministry of Awqaf in Amman) There is also the Church of the Nativity that is in the Palestinian quarter. It's a very tangled web.


    I had the opportunity a few years ago of visiting Jerusalem during a quiet period but there were still plenty of armed guards especially at the various holy sites. We weren't able to visit the Dome of the Rock but were able to view it from the Mount of Olives as pictured in the wiki link. I have my own stitched together panorama.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

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  • I'm interested in history, so would probably like to go there, but did you enjoy it Heero?


    Is that Jordanian protection guaranteed and underpinned by the UN? I've never heard of that to be honest. So, basically any moves on the rest of Jerusalem could destroy Israel's relationship with Jordan, about the only country the Israelis have a good relationship with in that region.

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  • The only reason I said that, was that the Israeli solders who do most of the killing of the Palestinians are themselves Arab Israelis, full citizens of Israel, but you are correct to question my assumption that both sides in Israel both orthodox and non-orthodox will welcome swarms of Palestinians into their midsts, considering decades of animosity between them. I think I'll withdraw that remark wile I can!:)


    One solution would be to stick to the original agreement of the Balfour agreement and all Palestinians go and live in Jordan, there are many there now, except the Jordanians don't won't them.


    With this embassy move, to my mind, Trump is deliberately trying to put a wind under things and after yesterday's violence, noone can doubt there is momentum now for something different to happen.

    I think Trump is right to veer away Band-Aid solutions or plastering over yawning cracks. It's a political version of creative destruction.


    Palestinians have become the mongrels of the Middle East, which makes them persona non grata in most Arab countries and even Jordan has lost patience with them. Of course, it's the Hamas faction that has handicapped Palestinians' chances and that is so sad for the other Palestinians who comport themselves with much dignity and intelligence. When the United Nations accommodated ultra Zionism by displacing Palestine to create a Jewish homeland, the seeds of hatred by Palestinians were deeply planted. The unremitting expansion of Israeli new settlements into Palestinians' non-sovereign homeland has obviously fanned the flames of that hatred. Yet how else was Israel to grow and flourish with such a small amount of territory awarded by the UN? The UN gave Zionists a poisoned chalice. The Jewish homeland might have flourished more easily in Texas, Alaska or Florida but the Zionists donned their orthodox hat and decreed that the Old Testament provided a covenant for it to be Israel generally and Jerusalem specifically.


    My earlier posting about the failure of conspicuous Jews to assimilate in non-Jewish countries, labelled as anti-Semitism, begs the question as to why this hasn't become such a burning issue with Muslims in Britain. After all, Jews represent just 0.5% of the British population and they have remained at that level from 2001 to 2011 while Muslims have increased from 3% to 5% over that same period - and undoubtedly in more recent years have increase even further through immigration and an above-average birthrate. This may sound ridiculous but I think the reason why Jews get picked on is "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers" syndrome: a fearful wariness of Jews who, at a casual glance, look almost like us non-Jews, but on closer examination are different in behaviour and attitudes. With Muslims the differences are far more obvious and therefore less creepy. The detestation or hatred, when it exists, is more clear-cut, out in the open; we know what it is we dislike about Muslims: that an unidentifiable number of them want kill infidels or are receptive or manipulable to such "radicalisation" and that a greater number of them want Islamic values to be in the ascendancy or at the very least to legitimise Sharia Law in this, their host country. So we sort of "know our enemy", who is threatening the very fabric of British life style and values, and that is a simpler kind of hatred, one without fear of the unknown.


    By contrast, in the case of Jews, their "threat" is being good at money and trade, associated with gaining power and influence, which creates envy and resentment. It's bad enough that that there is a pareto distribution of wealth (the 80-20 rule) but when it is believed that Jews account for so much of that skewness the envy turns to suspicion and hatred, fuelling anti-Semitism. It is therefore hardly surprising that anti-Semitism flourishes in a political party devoted to the drastic re-distribution of wealth.

    Now called casablanca.

  • but did you enjoy it Heero?

    Yes, really interesting to actually go to the places like the Church of the Nativity, the wailing wall, church of the Holy Sepulchre. One thing that did sort of shock me was to see real beggars in the city streets dressed in rags unlike our own professional "beggars"


    This was part of a 3 day trip that we did from Cyprus that also included a visit to the Pyramids, Sphinx and the Egyptian museum in Cairo, about 15 years ago when things were quite settled, unlike now.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

    If my post is in this colour  it is moderation. Take note.


  • I think Trump is right to veer away Band-Aid solutions or plastering over yawning cracks. It's a political version of creative destruction.


    Palestinians have become the mongrels of the Middle East, which makes them persona non grata in most Arab countries and even Jordan has lost patience with them. Of course, it's the Hamas faction that has handicapped Palestinians' chances and that is so sad for the other Palestinians who comport themselves with much dignity and intelligence. When the United Nations accommodated ultra Zionism by displacing Palestine to create a Jewish homeland, the seeds of hatred by Palestinians were deeply planted. The unremitting expansion of Israeli new settlements into Palestinians' non-sovereign homeland has obviously fanned the flames of that hatred. Yet how else was Israel to grow and flourish with such a small amount of territory awarded by the UN? The UN gave Zionists a poisoned chalice. The Jewish homeland might have flourished more easily in Texas, Alaska or Florida but the Zionists donned their orthodox hat and decreed that the Old Testament provided a covenant for it to be Israel generally and Jerusalem specifically.

    The thing with Hamas is and I'm not defending them in anyway, but they provide schools, jobs and even food. If you're a Palestinian living in Gaza and you want to "get on" with life (yes, I know the irony...) then Hamas is the only player in town.


    This might sound a pro-Zionsim opinion here, but the Arabs had so much land and as there was the historical context for Jews living in that region and with the aftermath of the holocaust, what was the UN to do? If the Americans were going to offer Texas, they would have done it. Zero chance, in my opinion.


    The thing with plasters is they do prevent minor wounds from getting infected and spreading. If you remove the plasters, then the blood might flow, literally in this case.

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  • Yes, really interesting to actually go to the places like the Church of the Nativity, the wailing wall, church of the Holy Sepulchre. One thing that did sort of shock me was to see real beggars in the city streets dressed in rags unlike our own professional "beggars"


    This was part of a 3 day trip that we did from Cyprus that also included a visit to the Pyramids, Sphinx and the Egyptian museum in Cairo, about 15 years ago when things were quite settled, unlike now.

    That's a seriously good holiday! About the only thing missing from that list is Petra.

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  • The thing with Hamas is and I'm not defending them in anyway, but they provide schools, jobs and even food. If you're a Palestinian living in Gaza and you want to "get on" with life (yes, I know the irony...) then Hamas is the only player in town.


    This might sound a pro-Zionsim opinion here, but the Arabs had so much land and as there was the historical context for Jews living in that region and with the aftermath of the holocaust, what was the UN to do? If the Americans were going to offer Texas, they would have done it. Zero chance, in my opinion.


    The thing with plasters is they do prevent minor wounds from getting infected and spreading. If you remove the plasters, then the blood might flow, literally in this case.

    You make a good point about slicing off a small amount of surplus land from 2-3 Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan). Looking at the map it would be quite a puzzle of options that would require land swaps, where all parties retain a coastline. Israel would also need to pick up some piece of the land swap to accommodate their natural expansion in a way that no longer encroaches on the Palestinians. All quite do-able. Leave it to the UN - shouldn't take longer than 10-15 years! By which time the Middle East will be a nuclear wasteland.

    Now called casablanca.

  • You make a good point about slicing off a small amount of surplus land from 2-3 Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan)

    What I meant was that there was a two state solution in the 1940s, one state for the Arabs and one for the Jews. If the Arabs had kept to the agreement, there would be a Palestinian state today. Instead the Hashemite tribe claimed the state for itself and renamed it Jordan. Although, that wouldn't have solved the problem about what to do with the Arabs who refused to leave their land and homes in West Palestine aka Israel.


    If someone ever tries to forcibly evict you, you'd fight. I don't blame the Palestinians for their behaviour. They were not the cause of the holocaust and yet have suffered its after effects, the same as the Jews have.


    You cannot have two tribes sharing the same land. It doesn't work. It never has, it never will. I think the solution is in Jordan's hands, but the king has his own little fiefdom and seems happy to stick to the status quo.

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  • The Duke of Cambridge is spending the day in Jordan as he continues his royal trip to the Middle East.

    Prince William visited a Roman archaeological site where he met young people helped by a charity refugee programme.

    His wife, Catherine, visited the ancient ruins during the 1980s.

    Later, the prince, 36, will become the first royal to make an official visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories.

    A blatantly political move by our government me thinks, aimed at Trump and his recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.

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  • I'm surprised things didn't flare up badly when Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital, but this does now look like a serious escalation from the Palestinian militants and we know how the Israelis will respond.


    I wonder how much longer a "Gaza strip" will even exist for, if this sort of thing keeps happening.

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  • This will go well.:(


    Netanyahu knows he has Trump's full support, so he will try and do as much as he can while he's still in office. As for the peace process...

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  • Increasingly it will be judged by neighbouring states that there isn't enough room in the Middle East for Israel and there will be a war. Until that tipping point Israel carries on expanding its geo-sovereignty based on the threat or use of their massive firepower.


    Meanwhile Palestinian's hatred of Israel - remaining unshakeable ever since the birth of Israel was allowed by the UN to displace Palestinian occupation - which is all the excuse Israel needs to adopt a hard line and decide they may as well be hung for a sheep as lamb.


    The fact that Netanyahu is confident his intended Hard Zionism policy is a vote-winner speaks volumes about the attitudes of Israeli citizens.


    The fact is that if anything I said above came from the office of the Labour Party, the usual howls of anti-semitism would resume, along with the wandering off of any remaining wondering Jews, until the Labour Party can promote itself to the electorate as, if not "pure aryan", then at least "semitic-free"!


    Has anyone ever wondered why, of all the religions there are in the world, only Judaism requires its very own homeland? And in suggesting an answer give thought to cause & effects.

  • I agree about the tipping point and it seems that Iran, in particular, is the most obvious candidate to face off against Israel. As to the last point, the Muslims have Saudi Arabia with Mecca and Medina as their holy land and I guess for Christians, beyond the holy sites in Israel itself, I guess Rome would be considered the centre of Christianity.

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  • Religions are all used as excuses for war and territorial aggrandizement. They preach hatred and violence against infidels so they can force people to take up arms against one another and this sort of aggro can be made to last for long periods of time on the flimsiest of excuses.


    The day religions lose theocratic power might be a great day for humanity but one has to bear in mind that humans tend to transform failing belief systems into new ones based on a few tenets of whatever worked last time. New clothes, new emperors and the whole thing starts again. Marxism did this rather well and the new age far left veggie liberal fascists appear to be the next step in the circus act.

    There, in a mauve light of drifted lupins,

    They hung in the cupped hands of mountains

    Made of tingling atoms.- Ted Hughes


  • You would think that if there is a God as described in all the religious documents then he/she would not allow these various factions to fight and war with each other

    But then religion is not about faith, it is about power

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • Religions are all used as excuses for war and territorial aggrandizement. They preach hatred and violence against infidels so they can force people to take up arms against one another and this sort of aggro can be made to last for long periods of time on the flimsiest of excuses.


    The day religions lose theocratic power might be a great day for humanity but one has to bear in mind that humans tend to transform failing belief systems into new ones based on a few tenets of whatever worked last time. New clothes, new emperors and the whole thing starts again. Marxism did this rather well and the new age far left veggie liberal fascists appear to be the next step in the circus act.

    I agree, but I'm kind of hoping the veggie fascists, as you call them (:)) will not kill people in their millions like the religions have done, but as you mention food there, I do think the conflicts of the future will still be over basics like food and especially water.

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  • You would think that if there is a God as described in all the religious documents then he/she would not allow these various factions to fight and war with each other

    But then religion is not about faith, it is about power

    Exactly.


    I have a cousin who married into the Mormons and will not do various things because of her religion like drink tea. Yet, the Mormon leaders in Salt Lake City have been photographed drinking caffeinated drinks, so I don't see what the problem is.


    It's all about power and controlling the sheep and until the sheep, aka people, break free of religion, this crap will go on. But as LW wisely tells us, something else will likely take its place.

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