Israel and Palestine

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  • When Trump chose to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, I believe it was the right thing to do, in spite of being approved by Jews and condemned by everyone else. Whether deliberately or unwittingly, it could be argued that Trump has lanced a boil that would otherwise carry on festering until the end of time. I see it as analogous to using explosives to blow out a persistent oil-well fire.

    Probably more unwittingly, but yes I agree. Although the violence will no doubt get worse before it gets better (see my next comment) this could be the start of the resolution of this problem.

    It would have been nice if Trump had also added that while Israel is celebrating Jerusalem as its recognised capital, this would be a good time for Netanyahu to announce cessation of building further Jewish settlements on Palestinian’s land. (However,I fear most of the damage caused by those settlements has now occurred).

    Indeed and why would they stop now? They've been given the green light by the Americans to do what they want and they will.

    The Israelis have been playing the long game here going along with the two state nonsense. The Palestinian land is not contiguous, if could never form a state, but the Israelis have played along nether the less. Now, they don't need to act. I would expect to see a substantial increase in settlement building now.

  • The Israelis have been playing the long game here going along with the two state nonsense. The Palestinian land is not contiguous, if could never form a state, but the Israelis have played along nether the less. Now, they don't need to act. I would expect to see a substantial increase in settlement building now.

    Okay, Israel reinforces its territorial position in the Middle East and the Palestinians remain rooted in a nihilistic self-defeating no-man's land. Yet once upon a time they had their own country ..... of sorts ..... and were unfairly and unthinkingly ousted by global powers that recognised that the unceasingly persecuted Jews needed a homeland. Clearly it is far too late to re-examine how that decision was implemented.

    Yet do you think there is any moral imperative for the world to find a way to rescue unfairly displaced Palestinians from their justifiable grievance? Or should the world write them off as having become their own worst enemy?

    Money properly and well spent could alleviate, even cure the Palestinian's problem. On a global basis it would be "small change", "petty cash" to give the Palestinians an offer they would be nuts to refuse. Food, water, decent accommodation, clothing, medical facilities and education, especially re-education and more especially advanced education and work skills. Obviously such funding must be directed and overseen to ensure it goes where planned rather than into Palestinian politicians' personal Lichtenstein bank accounts or to buy missiles.

    Surely that would give Palestinian's a running start in re-making their lives in a more positive self-helping way, more useful and eligible to join the better parts of the human race, whether in the Middle East or further afield.

    It is surely not a prerequisite that Palestinians must regain their very own homeland. That regrettable damage has been done and there is no going back. It would still right a wrong if the world could finance a restart for Palestinians. From the Palestinian standpoint, they would need to realise that this is the best offer they will ever get and that their decision is to adapt or die. If they continue to leap at every opportunity to fail, by rejecting the offer and continue waging hopeless hostilities against Israel, then that is the decision they will have to live with and eventually die from. As for Palestinians' fixation over Jerusalem, the only advice to offer them is "get over it". Ideally, all the right parts of holy Jerusalem could still be an open city for Palestinians and other nationalities to still need to get their religious/spiritual fix. That too could be built into the "global offer".

    The world view of Palestinians - to the extent that there is any view at all - does not have the tiniest trace of an equivalent to anti-Semitism that is the cross which Jews have had to bear for centuries. Therefore, the Palestinians don't need a country, they need a life.

    NB: I'm trying to avoid referring to the United Nations who have a set-up which is no longer fit for purpose. The "Global Offer" that I envisage would come from enough prosperous like-minded countries, without any of the usual vetoing bullshit that contributes to the impotence of the UN.

  • Not sure where to post this as the story covers several themes. We were already talking Trump's Jerusalem move here, but as this is more focussed on Trump and America, I thought it better to go here.

    So, the UK voted against Trump at the UN and he's taking names of those who voted against him. Yet another example of someone who sounds like a petulant child, but where is this heading?

    Could America find itself isolated in the world? Could this be the start of the "special" relationship being not so special anymore, or even become non-existent?

    There is the wider question of the UN itself, which perhaps would be better served by another thread, but Trump has threatened to withdraw funding to the UN, a body he has always hated. The Americans are by far the largest contributor to the UN. If America pulls the funding, what happens to the UN?

    Although I don't like Trump's style, I do appreciate his substance. He doesn't sit on the fence if he can help it. Jerusalem is a case in point; a boil that had to be lanced, because a 2-state solution with the Palestinians was always going to be unworkable. Although understandable, it always was plain wrong and hugely regrettable that the world approved or acquiesced the displacement of Palestine in favour of Israel. Seventy years later it is impossible to turn that clock back.

    The world, including Israel, and Arab Nations, now needs to bankroll a vastly improved standard of living of those scraping by in what was once Palestine - food & water, health, accommodation, education (including family planning/birth control) and employment skills (professional and manual). The hard reality is that without a UN- financially-rewarded re-arrangement of territory from Palestinian's neighbours with land to spare (eg Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia - don't hold your breath on that one) there isn't enough land to sustain a resurrected State of Palestine, least of all with the Palestinian's birth rate. So the only solution left is for UN-funded & educated/trained Palestinians to disperse to other Muslim countries. The Palestinians need to move on from their religious holy land fixation about Jerusalem or resign themselves to eating sand rissoles and living in concrete bunkers for the rest of their lives.

    The UN could together finance out of petty cash a feasible life for Palestinians. But the UN lacks the modus operandi, imagination and true humanity (as opposed to posturing) to even propose such a programme, let alone instigate it. Besides which, it is likely that the Palestinians., with their nihilistic-religious motivations, would respond to such a plan by firing off some more missiles and bombs against Israel. I suppose population implosion is one way to solve population explosion. So be it.

    Against that background, Trump would be right to baulk on America picking up most or all of the tab for putting Palestinians back on their feet. More broadly, I think Trump is also right to re-examine America's goodwill or largesse towards those Nations that criticise him and his policies without offering a reason why or better option. I don't see anything petulant about that. It is self-righteous Europe, Britain in particular, that is torpedoing that "special relationship. More fool them.

  • Yet do you think there is any moral imperative for the world to find a way to rescue unfairly displaced Palestinians from their justifiable grievance? Or should the world write them off as having become their own worst enemy?

    In terms of the world, no, but Britain, possibly, as we were right in the middle of it all by our own choice in the 1940's.

    Money properly and well spent could alleviate, even cure the Palestinian's problem. On a global basis it would be "small change", "petty cash" to give the Palestinians an offer they would be nuts to refuse. Food, water, decent accommodation, clothing, medical facilities and education, especially re-education and more especially advanced education and work skills. Obviously such funding must be directed and overseen to ensure it goes where planned rather than into Palestinian politicians' personal Lichtenstein bank accounts or to buy missiles.


    Surely that would give Palestinian's a running start in re-making their lives in a more positive self-helping way, more useful and eligible to join the better parts of the human race, whether in the Middle East or further afield.

    I agree that the problem could be alleviated but not cured, by throwing a load of money at the issue. But lets say the Palestinians were relocated to somewhere else, who would have them? The Arab states have shown no interest, unless someone buys Sinai from the Egyptians.

    I suppose population implosion is one way to solve population explosion. So be it.

    That's what the Israelis are trying to do now. The same tactic used against Jews before and during WW2. Concentrate them in ghettos where in effect, they cannot feasibly survive long term in any meaningful way.

  • Although I don't like Trump's style, I do appreciate his substance. He doesn't sit on the fence if he can help it. Jerusalem is a case in point; a boil that had to be lanced, because a 2-state solution with the Palestinians was always going to be unworkable. Although understandable, it always was plain wrong and hugely regrettable that the world approved or acquiesced the displacement of Palestine in favour of Israel. Seventy years later it is impossible to turn that clock back.

    The world, including Israel, and Arab Nations, now needs to bankroll a vastly improved standard of living of those scraping by in what was once Palestine - food & water, health, accommodation, education (including family planning/birth control) and employment skills (professional and manual). The hard reality is that without a UN- financially-rewarded re-arrangement of territory from Palestinian's neighbours with land to spare (eg Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia - don't hold your breath on that one) there isn't enough land to sustain a resurrected State of Palestine, least of all with the Palestinian's birth rate. So the only solution left is for UN-funded & educated/trained Palestinians to disperse to other Muslim countries. The Palestinians need to move on from their religious holy land fixation about Jerusalem or resign themselves to eating sand rissoles and living in concrete bunkers for the rest of their lives.

    The UN could together finance out of petty cash a feasible life for Palestinians. But the UN lacks the modus operandi, imagination and true humanity (as opposed to posturing) to even propose such a programme, let alone instigate it. Besides which, it is likely that the Palestinians., with their nihilistic-religious motivations, would respond to such a plan by firing off some more missiles and bombs against Israel. I suppose population implosion is one way to solve population explosion. So be it.

    Against that background, Trump would be right to baulk on America picking up most or all of the tab for putting Palestinians back on their feet. More broadly, I think Trump is also right to re-examine America's goodwill or largesse towards those Nations that criticise him and his policies without offering a reason why or better option. I don't see anything petulant about that. It is self-righteous Europe, Britain in particular, that is torpedoing that "special relationship. More fool them.

    I moved this post here as it was more about Jerusalem/the Palestinian issue than Trump himself.
    ===============

    If the Palestinians were relocated, I don't think they'd go peacefully, I agree. Would you if you were forcibly moved?

    You said that Trump had lanced a boil, or perhaps he's opened a hornet's nest, either way, I would expect things to "heat up" in this region soon.

    It's interesting that the widespread Palestinian violence predicted by the media after Trump's announcement, never happened, beyond some youths throwing stones. Perhaps there is hope for this problem after all.

  • You're right that the Palestinians can't be re-located to somewhere else as a long line of raggedy refugees. No nation actually WANTS to be lumbered with that. What I'm talking about is a "League of Nations" funding of individual Palestinians, who would be given enough of a "grubstake" to start a new life someplace else, a nation that is predominantly Muslim. That host nation would also be given sufficient financial inducement or compensation by the "League of Nations" to provide assistance to these Palestinian immigrants without straining their own nation's limited resource.

    I'm sure you're also right in saying that Arab states show no interest unless someone buys Sinai from the Egyptians (which is just one of several possibilities for territory negotiation). That's my point: let us indeed have someone buy Sinai from the Egyptians. That someone would be the League of Nations and that league must surely include those Arab nations that can afford to contribute money or acreage. And on the money side, it must certainly include Israel.

    If the package was good enough I bet many Palestinians would go for it. Those who would remain in the present concrete ghettos would be the Hamas die-hards and no-hopers. No one is forcing them to take the offer of a new beginning. Suicide or self-destruction is their prerogative. Falling by the wayside is deeply tragic but not everyone can be a winner. I'm not talking Master Race eugenics here, just hard reality since the world began.

    By the way, I refer to a "League of Nations" to convey a complete re-invention of the UN, which is not fit for purpose and beyond repair.

  • @Rob Alka What you think about Trump's move to withhold money from the Palestinians?

    Story here:

    The US is withholding more than half of a $125m (£90m) instalment destined for the UN relief agency for the Palestinians, American officials say.

    It will provide $60m in aid to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) but will hold back a further $65m.

    A UN official said the move would have devastating consequences for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people.

  • For me, it's not the money, it's how it's spent. There is no investment to prevent or at least reduce the need for relief, such as vasectomies, birth control, education, work and a more secular approach to social and cultural exchange within and across borders. Doctors, medicine, food, water and accommodation do nothing to reduce the need for relief, arguably, sustain or even increase the need.

    As for what the UN Official says, gosh, there's a surprise.

  • This new story ties into what you said before, that you wanted the UN to intervene into the Palestinian problem and help fund their relocation.

    As the Americans provide the bulk of the money to the UN and Trump has just cut half of that off, I don't see this ever happening now.

    I don't now how this will end now. Their trapped (the Palestinians) lost half their money, divided leadership and under the influence of terrorist groups and other outside players. I don't see this ending well at all.

  • This new story ties into what you said before, that you wanted the UN to intervene into the Palestinian problem and help fund their relocation.

    As the Americans provide the bulk of the money to the UN and Trump has just cut half of that off, I don't see this ever happening now.

    I don't now how this will end now. Their trapped (the Palestinians) lost half their money, divided leadership and under the influence of terrorist groups and other outside players. I don't see this ending well at all.

    I agree with you; the future for the Palestinians look bleak now that America has slashed the UN budget.

    But I maintain that the future for the Palestinians will not be any less bleak even if the Americans did not slashed the UN budget. This is because is mostly if not entirely about relief rather than re-orientation, re-location or, to just that ghastly phrase, moving forward.

    You might recall that what I said on 26 Dec was:

    "I refer to a "League of Nations" in order to convey a complete re-invention of the UN, which is not fit for purpose and beyond repair"

    It's all very depressing.

    BTW: do you think Trump would still be accused of racism if he had talked about "dystopian nations"?!

  • The problem with the Palestinian areas, is whether they were ever a nation to begin with, let alone dystopian. They're certainly not pleasant places.

    Thinking about this a bit, what Trump is doing is "forcing" things, you use the term moving forward. Perhaps at the end of this current mess, things will be moved forward, one way or the other.

    Either an entire people starve or disintegrate into mass violence and/or, they attack the Israelis en mass, thus resulting in a overwhelming response against them. Perhaps this may then persuade the Arab states (the Palestinians are Arabs) to open up their lands to them to enable relocation. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Palestinians may choose to do a peace deal with the Israelis.

    Since Trump's move over Israel, Abbas has been frothing at the mouth and he was the last moderate leader there.

  • The problem with the Palestinian areas, is whether they were ever a nation to begin with, let alone dystopian. They're certainly not pleasant places.

    Thinking about this a bit, what Trump is doing is "forcing" things, you use the term moving forward. Perhaps at the end of this current mess, things will be moved forward, one way or the other.

    Either an entire people starve or disintegrate into mass violence and/or, they attack the Israelis en mass, thus resulting in a overwhelming response against them. Perhaps this may then persuade the Arab states (the Palestinians are Arabs) to open up their lands to them to enable relocation. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Palestinians may choose to do a peace deal with the Israelis.

    Since Trump's move over Israel, Abbas has been frothing at the mouth and he was the last moderate leader there.

    I suppose Abbas has to foam at the mouth just to avoid losing votes to Hamas

    Did I REALLY use the term "moving forward"?. Oh gawd! I'm going to add it to my list for verbal vaccination , which already includes "no problem", "let me be perfectly clear", "lessons learned", "pressure", "more funding", "best deal for Britain" and, Jon Snow's favourite way of dealing with anything complex, "....and all the rest of it".

    I think you're right in questioning whether Palestine was ever a normal functioning nation to begin with. Certainly they weren't thought so by other Arab nations and still today other Arab nations are reluctant to grant citizenship to displaced/refugee Palestinians.

    Quite possibly the reason why Palestinians continue to impose peace deal conditions which they know Israel will find impossible to go along with (eg a shared state, a shared Jerusalem or a divided up Jerusalem) is because, deep down, they don't want a peace deal because they know they would fail to hold up their end in terms of enterprise, making a living, civil order and social integration. For too many Palestinians I fear that nihilism is their only game in town. It is a game which will eventually end in self-destruction. Which is simply taking vaccination to its ultimate extreme

  • I think most people, including the Palestinians, just want to get on with their lives, it's only a few who turn to extremism. But if the Palestinians continue to be blocked where they can live or work and see ever encroaching Israeli settlements around them, then more will turn to extremism.

    I am very surprised things are so quiet from this part of the world following Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

    Since 1947, this region has been in perpetual stasis. There has never been peace or stability between the Palestinians and Israelis, so perhaps rather than self destructing, the Palestinians may sue for the best deal they can get.

    Trump's move on blocking some American aid to the UN which funds and feeds some UN aid programmes in the Palestinian areas was interesting. Again, moving things "along" but whether they be "forward," time will tell.

  • Well, the day is almost here. The Americans move their embassy to Jerusalem tomorrow amid rising tensions between Palestinians and Israelis. Hamas has called on the wall dividing Jewish and Palestinians areas to be breached.

    If Trump is right with this embassy move, this could force the Palestinians into a permanent peace with Israel. If he's wrong, the blood will flow down the streets.

    The 14th May is the 70th anniversary of Israel's founding aka independence from our control after their own terrorist attacks against the British at the time.

    One person's terrorists is another's freedom fighters.

  • Almost 50 Palestinians dead, but I was expecting it to be much worse.

    The Israelies will never let them come back en-masse to their old lands, they'll just have to face that. Unfortunately the leaders whip up the youngsters into such a lather that they don't care if they get themselves killed trying to storm the border.

  • I think ultimately, half the Palestinians will "accept" things as they are and eventually become full blown Israeli citizens, but the other half won't. How Israel deals with that group, is what will define the country for generations to come. If they do to them, what was done to the Jews in WW2, they'll be no forgiveness for Israel. I expect a mass expulsion at some point.

  • I think ultimately, half the Palestinians will "accept" things as they are and eventually become full blown Israeli citizens, but the other half won't. How Israel deals with that group, is what will define the country for generations to come. If they do to them, what was done to the Jews in WW2, they'll be no forgiveness for Israel. I expect a mass expulsion at some point.

    What if Israel doesn't grant acquiescent Palestinians full citizenship? What if Israel doesn't want a subgroup that is fundamentally and resentfully out-of-sorts with Judaism and which has a birthrate 30% higher than that of Israelis, which thereby will dilute and eventually replace Israel's whole "reason for being"?

    A great many Israelis don't mind permitting a soft permissive Zionism but only when it is they who are exercising that permissiveness. Their comfort zone is the common denominator of being Jewish. As the Palestinian subgroup increases its presence, the Israelis will close ranks and be united against a common hazard.

    This territorial imperative is a fundamental law in anthropology and is at its fiercest when based on a religion that underpins a way of life. From time immemorial Jews have overtly differentiated themselves from non-Jews, which has made assimilation in a non-Jewish world uneasy, both for Jews and non-Jews. In that situation, it is inevitable that the host country will call the shots. Germany and Russia horrifically demonstrated that a century or two ago; and of course it goes back through the ages.

    The seemingly atavistic pursuit of identity and affiliation needs to become less extreme. The very idea of pursuing an identity and affiliation that is so tightly homogeneous - and so overt - to the point where such people end up needing their very own country to survive is, by definition, anti-assimilating and consequently a threat to themselves and ultimately a threat to world order.

  • What if Israel doesn't grant acquiescent Palestinians full citizenship?

    The only reason I said that, was that the Israeli solders who do most of the killing of the Palestinians are themselves Arab Israelis, full citizens of Israel, but you are correct to question my assumption that both sides in Israel both orthodox and non-orthodox will welcome swarms of Palestinians into their midsts, considering decades of animosity between them. I think I'll withdraw that remark while I can!:)

    One solution would be to stick to the original agreement of the Balfour agreement and all Palestinians go and live in Jordan, there are many there now, except the Jordanians don't won't them.

    With this embassy move, to my mind, Trump is deliberately trying to put a wind under things and after yesterday's violence, no one can doubt there is momentum now for something different to happen.

  • What are people's opinions about the future of Jerusalem? Is the American embassy move a sign to the Israelis to unite Jerusalem under Israel's control and drive out the Palestinians from East Jerusalem?

    If it's violent now, that will cause a bloodbath.

    Looking at the words and body language of the Americans and Israelis at the embassy opening yesterday, I believe we may now see moves for the Israelis to gain full control of the city.

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