Hong Kong protesters demonstrate against extradition bill

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  • Tens of thousands of people are marching in Hong Kong against a law critics fear could let China target political opponents in the territory.

    The controversial extradition bill would allow suspected criminals to be sent to mainland China for trial.

    The protests are expected to be the biggest since the 2014 Umbrella Movement, which saw hundreds of thousands take to the streets.

  • Hong Kong extradition: Police fire rubber bullets at protesters

    Police have fired rubber bullets and tear gas at protesters in Hong Kong where anger at a new extradition bill has spilled over into violence.

    Protesters blocked key roads around government buildings and threw bricks and projectiles at police.

    The government is still backing the bill, which would allow extradition to mainland China and it is expected to pass its final vote on 20 June.

    Looks like HK is on a collision course with mainland China. First rubber bullets, then it will be real ones...Will it explode?

  • I fear for the protesters, as I suspect they will be beaten into submission. The Chinese 'government' does not tolerate protests, as history has shown.

    This is the country our PM trusts with our G5 network!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • The Chinese government has been gradually asserting more control of HK and this is the thing that may tip the balance into widespread violence. As you say Fidget, the Chinese government has "form" when it comes to dealing with protests, 30 years after the Tiananmen Square massacre.

    I don't think this well end well at all.

    We signed a treaty with the Chinese, when we handed HK back to them which allows HK to be semi-independent for 50 years after the treaty. The Chinese government has been breaking it, as they assert ever more control over HK, so we have a legal duty to do something. Should we get involved though, if it all goes belly up?

  • "we have a legal duty to do something".

    What might that something be?

    C'mon, you know that any something will be nothing

    Surely everyone knew, even Chris Patton, that when the lease ended, whatever was signed or said, there was nothing that would stop China doing whatever it wished with HK. Even back then the sense of foreboding was palpable.

    That is why Trump is 100% right to not put up with any sh*t from China.

    I feel sorry not only for the citizens of HK but also those in China who aren't permitted or can't afford to leave.

  • Surely everyone knew, even Chris Patton, that when the lease ended, whatever was signed or said, there was nothing that would stop China doing whatever it wished with HK. Even back then the sense of foreboding was palpable.

    Yes I remember that myself as the British flag was lowered and the Chinese goose-stepped in with their flag at the handover ceremony.

    I feel sorry not only for the citizens of HK but also those in China who aren't permitted or can't afford to leave.

    True.

  • Of course neither Britain nor the EU will stand up and at least voice their unease/disdain/contempt towards China

    Why not? Because we want to China's business

    What we and the EU don't realise is that China has two connected needs:

    Need (1): to invest in and flog stuff to the West and, of course, buy our stuff and allow in some Western investment. Even the Chinese recognise it has to be a 2-way street.

    Need (2): not be shamed and shunned.

    The reason these two needs are connected is that if China is shamed & shunned by the West, they fear the trading relationship will be at arm's length where the West will be reluctant to invest in China and even more reluctant to welcome China to invest in the West.

    Loss of Face is China's weak spot. Disdain will cost the West nothing

  • On the two points:

    1. I think that was the case even just twenty years ago, but there are now hundreds of millions more Chinese who have been lifted out of poverty and are consumers in the same way we are. And hundreds of millions more peasants who are waiting for their chance.

    China's internal market for consumer goods and services is immense now, so do they really need outside markets?

    2. The Tiananmen Square massacre showed they don't give a damn about such things, or more recently, their island building programme. which they've now turned into military bases off other's people's coasts.

  • Will China crackdown on these protestors now, this is just the excuse they need?

    Do you think it might be argued this is not just the excuse China needs but also the justification?

    Protesting is getting out of hand, becoming contagious, a compulsive need, whether related to early stirrings of latent anarchy or identity politics or an exaggerated misconceived notion of democracy and freedom of expression or the arrogance of youths' presumption of societal rights or .... whatever. Remember Marlon Brando's answer in The Wild One when he and his Hell's Angel gang dismounted their Harley Davisons and strode into a bar and the barman asked Brando "what are you rebelling against?" and he replied "what have you got?". Or how tv news anchorman Howard Beale in Network persuaded Americans to open their windows and shout "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take take it anymore?".

  • Do you think it might be argued this is not just the excuse China needs but also the justification?

    No justification, especially as I suspect it's China itself who are behind these violent protestors.

    The protestors, the peaceful ones, are right to be suspicious about this Bill being put on ice. The Bill is not gone, just sidelined for now, so the protestors want to kill it while they have the momentum.

  • Bill not gone, just sidelined for now, so the protesters want to kill it while they have the momentum.

    What they want and what they'll get are two different things.

    They should suspend protests and see how it pans out in forthcoming months and years. That's the difference between a brainless mob and a political or social moveement

    The idea of letting these yellowish snowflakes rather than a court of law decide when extradition is justified must seem to mainland China both abhorrent and risible

    I think it was shrewd for mainland China (or even its semi-stooge HK government) to use private protester-resistance/deterrent personnel rather than the HK police.

  • I was meaning to post back here the other day, but the heat took over...

    But I watched the BBC News and these violent "protestors" were attacking people who had just attended a freedom march. This was no random attack and the attackers were all dressed the same..

    It's clear, they were Chinese military.:thumbdown::cursing:

  • 1 I watched the BBC News and these violent "protestors"

    2 Were attacking people who had just attended a freedom march.

    3 This was no random attack and the attackers were all dressed the same..

    4 It's clear, they were Chinese military.:thumbdown::cursing:

    1 Which ones? HK's or commissioned by mainland China?. Because they're both violent

    2 Attacking those on freedom march. Is Jon Snow your dad? Freedom march my arse. They break up things

    3 That's a good thing, right. It means the action was purposeful. What do you want? People attacking one another at random and without purpose?

    4 And what's wrong with that? Someone has to stop people who just want to protest to the end of time, where nothing will satisfy them, where reason and debate goes out of the window and simplistic brainless slogans are the order of the day, and where the protesters are so utterly divorced from reality that they actually think the owners of HK will accede totally to their juvenile idealistic wishes. I used to be left wing, then centrist, then guiltily and reluctantly right wing (and prepared to pretend I wasn't in certain company) but thanks to the way this world is developing, where no government can't please all the people all the time or unite a 50-50 difference of opinion which becomes more entrenched and virulent which each day that passes, I'm all for calling in the police, failing that, the army, and failing that, under-cover mercenaries; whoever it takes to hose them down, chuck them into a compound, try them as disturbers of the peace and destroyers of public property and possibly anarchists, impose a severe draconian sentence which will be suspended for 3 years to see if they can learn to grow up and behave the themselves - or, as Trump would suggest, go and live somewhere else.

    Yet having said all that, Hong Kong is a sad mess. The gap between rich and poor is quite dismaying. Property costs are double that of London and with so many people in so few square feet, the squalor for those scraping by on a low income is horrendous for what is considered to be Asia's economic powerhouse. By contrast, it's capitalist rival Singapore has a far more civilised lifestyle extending across the socio-economic spectrum.

    I don't know if the oppressed protesting Hong Kong citizens are going to get anywhere with mainland China. But I'm pretty sure they won't make any progress by protesting about every little thing. Trying to talk with the Hong Kong government is a waste of time. That's like trying to negotiate with the caretaker rather than the landlord. If the protesters can't find a way to have talks with the government in mainland China then they don't stand a chance. But they need a leader who can a command a "protest ceasefire" while negotiations are in progress. The long term problem is that I'm not even sure how much mainland China needs Hong Kong as a conduit to Western capitalism. I think China is quickly learning how to trade with the West and maybe Hong Kong will have less useful advice or know-how to offer in the future. I think Hong Kong is already for those Chinese entrepreneurs who cannot imagine being answerable to mainland China and I'm sure their wealth is by now banked outside of Hong Kong just to be on the safe side - and I wouldn't be at all surprised if one day soon they decide to also deposit themselves somewhere else.

    Isn't it interesting that no one in this forum on this thread has even attempted to comment on the rightness or wrongness of mainland China imposing this extradition bill. When Robbie opened the thread on 9 June based on the BBC News item, no one commented on the fairness or otherwise of this extradition treaty being imposed by mainland China, in spite of the fact that Robbie's BBC News lead did discuss reasons for and against.

    I think commenting on the protest without weighing up its justification is pointless and superficial.

    Here's a hot newsflash for you. Mainland China owns Hong Kong! One owner of two separate styled regions is bound to produce differences in style. There was never a treaty that defined what differences would and wouldn't be acceptable to the owner. And no owner in his right mind would agree to put a difference of opinion of two regions to independent arbitration when his is the giant owner and the other a small breakaway westward capitalistic spearhead). Least of all when smaller region is represented by excitable people protesting about everything. I'm not sure China's unrelenting position has done them any favours but they are already today a force to be reckoned with.


    .

    Edited once, last by casablanca (July 26, 2019 at 10:45 PM).

  • They're Chinese military. Mainland China, the clue is in their identical clothes and the fact they only targeted protesters coming back from a peaceful protest.

    You talk of "peaceful" protests. I look at TV pictures of thousands of protesters behaving in a manner that is anything BUT peaceful. I also look at attempts by uniformed riot police to restrain them. It hardly matters whether these riot police are commissioned by China on the mainland or China in Hong Kong. It's all China. Is your reluctance to judge the merit or sensibleness of this prolonged protestation because :

    1) You think it less important than just commenting on the activity of protesting? A bit like describing the appearance of an atomic mushroom cloud over Hiroshima rather than the reasons, for better or worse, why it happened.

    2) You think practically everyone in the West believes, as you do, that the protesters are the heroes who can do no wrong and the Chinese are the villains who can do no right?

    3) You think that pursuit and demand for "Democracy" and its partner, "Freedom" is a concept with no upper limit and that if a government refuses to adhere to all the demands for Democracy and Freedom, then vigorous public protests can commence with no restraint on size or duration until the Government capitulates to those demands? Or top put it another way: are you a supporter of mob democracy?

    4) You think "what?" is more important than "why?", "effect" more important than "cause" and that a consideration of likely outcomes and possible solutions is a mental bore and chore?

  • You talk of "peaceful" protests. I look at TV pictures of thousands of protesters behaving in a manner that is anything BUT peaceful.

    I am specifically talking what was shown on the BBC tv news on Monday, There were these white shirted men who just happened to be holding baseball bats...X/ (I doubt they were a sports team) and they were targetting (note the word targetting) people who were standing around in a station. The news reported that these people who had been attacked by the white shirts had come from a protest about democracy.

    How would any thug off the street know from all the people standing around in a station concourse, which ones had been to a democracy protest? In my opinion, these were clearly Chinese military.

    I'm not saying that out of all the protestors, some of them might be violent, but I'd bet my shirt that many of them who are attacking police or destroying property are Chinese military or working for the Chinese military, but that is separate to the specific incident on Monday that I'm talking about.

    It's all China.

    Here's a hot newsflash for you. Mainland China owns Hong Kong

    Just on the specific point that it's "all China." No it's not. As I'm sure you know, the Chinese signed a international treaty with us when we handed Hong Kong back to them that Hong Kong's laws and customs would be treated differently to that of mainland China for fifty years after handover.

    What is happening, I believe, is the attempt to make Hong Kong part of "all" China, through whatever means are necessary.

  • Isn't it interesting that no one in this forum on this thread has even attempted to comment on the rightness or wrongness of mainland China imposing this extradition bill.

    I will. It's wrong and against Hong Kong's Basic Law, which is why its been put on ice for now. For now.

    Do you really think a justice system based on a autocratic communist system is equal to one based on the law and jurisprudence?

    There is no law in mainland China, it's just whatever the communist party official "on duty" says it is on even given day.

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