Will Boris get Brexit done?

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  • I have read that a greater number of people in Scotland voted to leave the EU, than those who voted for the SNP. So, Leave votes in Scotland outnumber SNP voters. Having said that, I can understand the Scottish wish for independence. I would like the UK/England to be an independent sovereign state too. The whole world is moving that way, and the people want their governments to be closer, not more distant, hence Scotland, the UK, Hong Kong, Catalonia, etc. all wanting their independence. I truly doubt the Sots will be daft enough to give their sovereignty away to the EU, after gaining independence. The SNP may want to, but there is no proof the Scots will want to.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • That's interesting Fidget. One would expect the SNP to be keen on independence. I support Scottish Independence. I also support English Independence. And I would like to see the monarchy dispensed of. Except Catherine. She's marvellous and William hasn't done anything daft so far. Harry needs to be shipped to America along with his wife whose main interests seem to be black people and trashing white men.

  • I don't know how Bercow manages to keep his job. The job specification requires the Speaker to be impartial, and I doubt anyone would agree that Bercow is impartial, and that's without considering the accusations of his bullying.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I need a really good rant. The TV coverage today has been wall to wall reporting on how they (the politicians) will stop a no-deal Brexit. I am not a violent person, but I feel like stringing them all up! It's one thing to disagree with a democratic result and voicing their concern, but that is entirely different to actually trying to overturn a democratic result, especially when they were voted in on a promise to respect the result.

    These are supposedly intelligent people in charge of our country. I despair!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • At least one benefit of my current situation is that I barely have time for the tv, so miss the bulk of the crap and talking of the brown stuff:

    Brexit: Corbyn plans to call no-confidence vote to defeat no-deal

    Jeremy Corbyn has urged the leaders of the other opposition parties and Tory rebels to install him as caretaker PM in order to stop a no-deal Brexit.

    If he wins a no-confidence vote in the government, the Labour leader plans to delay Brexit, call a snap election and campaign for another referendum.

    Mr Corbyn outlined his plan in a letter, saying the caretaker government would be "strictly time-limited".

    Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson dismissed the plans as "nonsense".

    At least the Lib Dems aren't going along with this, so I give them that due, but can Corbyn win over enough conservative MPs, especially ones like Dominic Grieve who have already been deselected from their local parties and become PM and stop a no-deal Brexit?

  • I am absolutely disgusted with the remainers in Parliament. They make a big fuss over Boris becoming PM saying it was undemocratic, but see no problem with Corbyn trying to take over the job.

    Democracy will NOT be sacrificed to these traitors who wish to ignore the UK electorate and the biggest electoral mandate in UK history.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Can Boris succeed in prorogation of Parliament in order that the Government executive has the freedom to negotiate the terms for leaving the EU. Who will stop him? Grieve? Bercow? Gina's high court judge? What if The Queen gave her blessing to prorogation on the grounds that Parliament has reached an unsolvable impasse? Would her decision and therefore Britain's acid test of sovereignty be swept aside by its own parliament? Because, if so, the 52% who chose to leave the EU have ended up voting for a mirage or fool's paradise.

    Once the caretaker government comes back from the EU with a Brexit-in-name-only deal that needs to be ratified in Parliament, the question will be raised in Parliament as to whether this deal is any better than simply staying in the EU, ie rescinding Article 50.

    Recent polling shows that if a 2nd referendum was carried out, the result would favour remaining in the EU, which would be translated by Parliament into rescinding Article 50 (and this is consistent across the different pollsters). The alternative, of a 2nd referendum, that would persists in marginally favouring leaving the EU would still be subject to"consideration" and ratification by Parliament, and therefore the impasse will remain. This ugly truth about a 2nd referendum has not been publicized.

    If a campaign leading up to the 2nd referendum reminded voters that , in the event of the result continuing to be in favour of leaving, there would still need to be negotiations with the EU on the details of the new UK-EU political, economic, legal and social relationship and these negotiations would continue for an unspecified number of years. I would bet anything that once reminded of this unpalatable reality, a clear majority in the 2nd referendum will vote to remain in the EU under the present relationship, ie to rescind Article 50, and that Parliament will ratify that referendum result, along with a fake posturing of ambivalence so as to appeal to the voting public on both sides of this impossible divide.

    All of this will prove to be academic because the world (with the probable exception of Trumps's America) is already entering a recession and that is the one phenomenon where Britain will lead the way: first in street sleeping, first in food banks, first in unsolved burglaries, first in knife crime, first in self-oppression and mental ill-health, first in bankruptcies ..... the list is endless - we can truly emulate Donald Trump's slogan, of putting Britain first!

    If anyone on this forum has an alternative prognosis (other than one nestling in their dreams) I'm all ears.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pessimism preempts disappointment

  • You're jumping the gun. They have to win a no confidence vote against Boris, and I am not sure they will. I hope there are enough democrats in Westminster to see it through. After all, the majority of the Commons voted to give the decision to the people, and also voted for A50 to be invoked. Let's see if they want to commit political suicide.

    I disagree with your comment that the majority would now vote to Remain, but I have no proof of that, and neither do you. They are just opinion polls which are usually wrong anyway.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • 1 Another way of describing "jumping the gun" is anticipating or predicting. Why waste time on a forum just to see what has happened, which is adequately covered in news media? As for the strict definition of "jumping the gun", is there a right time to make a prediction. Is there a starter's gun in this political farce that I should have waited to hear before offering my viewpoint on how I believe it will pan out. Is my big mistake in not prefacing each of my sentences with "in my humble opinion"? Do I really need to add that to confirm hat I'm not The Second Coming? I can see that you refrained from jumping the gun on any of your points but do any of us really gain from a comment that the answer might be A or might be B and that if it's A then the next answer might be C or might be D, while if the first answer was B then the next answer might be E or might be F. Aren't we interested in one another's opinions of what tomorrow might bring? Or do we only want opinions that we already agree with?

    2 No, I'm not sure either. But that's not the only way they can straitjacket Boris, as my comments made clear

    3 Enough democrats in Westminster? You're kidding, right?

    4 If the "majority of the Commons voted to give the decision to the people" how come 3 years later we're still in the EU? Because they thwarted that decision. If others share your idea of democracy, we're in big trouble.

    5 Yes, they voted for A50 to be invoked. Proving that it wasn't just the referendum's 52% who didn't realise what they were letting themselves in for but parliament too. Why vote for something that, at first you can't deliver, and then, as the debating builds up, refuse to deliver?

    6 I don't know about wanting to commit political suicide but Parliament is certainly capable of doing so. Do lemmings want to commit suicide?!

    7 You won't get proof that the majority now want to remain unless you look for proof - as I have. You know how to google! When you say they are just opinion polls, and are usually wrong, you might just as well say that about the outcome of a referendum or general election. A vote is an opinion. It's not asking what you ate for breakfast this morning. It's a preference. Individual voters are not personally responsible for rescinding article 50 or handing to Maybot the keys to 10 Downing Street. They're just casting their individual preference or vote to be totted up with everyone else's. Maybe it's the question(s) asked that you have a problem with. In which case, are you going to tell me the last referendum was the gold standard of a clearly defined question into this subject?!?! Or is it the sample size you have a problem with? How many thousand interviews do you need before believing the result? From how many different research companies? When the waiter asks you to taste the wine before it is poured into all glasses, do you insist on drinking the whole bottle before deciding it is okay?! How many times do you need to toss a coin before accepting that the accumulated percentage showing heads has eventually converged with ever-diminishing variation on 50%? If all I have saidf here is to no avail because believe there are lies, damned lies and statistics, then instead ask yourself why it has been overridingly the remainers and not the leavers who would welcome a second referendum.

  • I wish I'd kept my thoughts to myself, and will do in future. Thanks for the lecture. I prefer a bit of optimism myself. I may be wrong, but I least I don't dwell in misery expecting the worst to happen.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • 1 I wish I'd kept my thoughts to myself, and will do in future

    2 Thanks for the lecture

    3 I prefer a bit of optimism myself.

    4 I may be wrong

    5 At least I don't dwell in misery expecting the worst to happen

    1 That's a great way to be in a forum!!

    2 You're welcome. Glad you found it enlightening

    3 My approach is to hope for the best but expect the worst. It's a mental safety net. It certainly works well when awaiting a response from you! Your default position seems to be to shoot the messenger rather than give consideration to the message

    4 How can you ever be wrong with Corbynesque comments like "I'm not sure they will ....", "I hope there are ....", "let's see if ...." and "I disagree but have no proof of that"?

    5 You ought to print and frame the song below to greet you each morning.

    When the sky is bright canary yellow

    I forget ev'ry cloud I've ever seen

    So they called me a cockeyed optimist

    Immature and incurably green

    I have heard people rant and rave and bellow

    That we're done and we might as well be dead

    But I'm only a cockeyed optimist

    And I can't get it into my head

    I hear the human race

    Is fallin' on its face

    And hasn't very far to go

    But ev'ry whip-poor-will

    Is sellin' me a bill

    And tellin' me it just ain't so

    I could say life is just a bowl of Jello

    And appear more intelligent and smart

    But I'm stuck like a dope

    With a thing called hope

    And I can't get it out of my heart!

    What's the betting you take offence at that light-hearted suggestion?

    Perhaps you should consider changing your forum name to "hedgehog" - cute but prickly.

  • ... yes, you've used those lyrics before.:rolleyes: I'll try and reply to some of your points you've made later in between all the the fluff and lyrics of your posts.

    I'm still on the earlier news this week about Hammond and Bercow, I see things have moved on from them and its now the Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman show, but not read the actual articles yet (news links coming later for those reading this at a future time and are unaware of what's being spoken about).

  • ... yes, you've used those lyrics before.:rolleyes: I'll try and reply to some of your points you've made later in between all the the fluff and lyrics of your posts.

    I'm still on the earlier news this week about Hammond and Bercow, I see things have moved on from them and its now the Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman show, but not read the actual articles yet (news links coming later for those reading this at a future time and are unaware of what's being spoken about).

    I don't remember previously using the Cockeyed Optimist lyrics. I remember using accentuate the positive, de-accentuate the negative and don't mess with Mr In-Between. I suppose they're similar.

    Boris is staying schtum on how he is going to circumnavigate Hammond, Bercow, Grieve, Ian Blackford (Scottish SNP) and all other self-serving scheming wretches.

    I suppose to be fair to Ken Clarke, he has never wavered from being fervently pro-EU and no reporter has ever questioned him on what he sees as the plusses of a federalised EU and why he is unconcerned about Britain having to abandon it's desire to govern itself on the big issues rather than be reduced to the position of a local regional authority. Although come to think of it, Ken Clarke's scathing answer to that, on the biggest issue of all in the past few decades, Britain has proved that, it is incapable of governing itself - and that this has been the case for a great number of years.

    I heard a remark from some lady on Radio 4 Question Time. She echoed something that I've been getting heartily sick of hearing: not just the mindless limited vocabulary of "crashing out", "catastrophic", "over the cliff" but the continual reference to the vexed issue of leaving with "deal" versus "no deal". The word "deal" is terribly misleading. Its most common meaning is to describe a commercial or trading deal, which is how almost all British politicians, media and other citizens keep referring to it and hence predicting the ghastly consequences on business /trade in leaving without a deal. The truth of the matter is that the only kind of "deal" Britain with which Britain can leave the EU is a withdrawal agreement (and the only negotiations, if any, will be to persuade the EU to consider amendments to May's deal that were rejected by Parliament - even though the EU keeps saying "take it or leave it"). In any event, it will have practically nothing to do with business or trade. The two parts of the "deal" - membership withdrawal and a new or amended business/trade relationship should have been negotiated simultaneously but we can hardly blame the EU for insisting on it being sequential when they witnessed what a bunch of time-wasting fu##ing lunatics we have been over the withdrawal agreement (not helped by Britain's negotiator being a black hole inside a vacuum, aka Theresa May. So if you think when (or if) we have leave the EU with a deal that it will be time to sing "Hallelujah, we're on our way to those sunny uplands", remember this: you ain't seen nothing yet. The really difficult and lengthy deal will make the last three or more years seem like a picnic.

    Out of the tree of strife we picked a deal that’s bum
    It was ‘cos May came along and everything went glum
    It may seem a real good bet
    But the worst is yet to come

    Worst is yet to come

    And that won’t be fine
    You might see the sun
    But you sure won’t see it shine

  • Firstly song lyrics and now a poem, this thread is becoming very artistic.8o

    I heard a remark from some lady on Radio 4 Question Time. She echoed something that I've been getting heartily sick of hearing: not just the mindless limited vocabulary of "crashing out", "catastrophic", "over the cliff" but the continual reference to the vexed issue of leaving with "deal" versus "no deal". The word "deal" is terribly misleading. Its most common meaning is to describe a commercial or trading deal, which is how almost all British politicians, media and other citizens keep referring to it and hence predicting the ghastly consequences on business /trade in leaving without a deal. The truth of the matter is that the only kind of "deal" Britain with which Britain can leave the EU is a withdrawal agreement (and the only negotiations, if any, will be to persuade the EU to consider amendments to May's deal that were rejected by Parliament - even though the EU keeps saying "take it or leave it"). In any event, it will have practically nothing to do with business or trade. The two parts of the "deal" - membership withdrawal and a new or amended business/trade relationship should have been negotiated simultaneously but we can hardly blame the EU for insisting on it being sequential when they witnessed what a bunch of time-wasting fu##ing lunatics we have been over the withdrawal agreement (not helped by Britain's negotiator being a black hole inside a vacuum, aka Theresa May. So if you think when (or if) we have leave the EU with a deal that it will be time to sing "Hallelujah, we're on our way to those sunny uplands", remember this: you ain't seen nothing yet. The really difficult and lengthy deal will make the last three or more years seem like a picnic.

    I agree with all that until I came to the "but we can hardly blame the EU for insisting on it being sequential," bit. Yes, we bloody can! It was their idea and unfortunately for the UK, May capitulated to their demands on Day One of the negotiations.

    We cannot even properly sign off any agreed exit arrangements (should they miraculously materialise in the next two months) until we've had some idea of what a future trade deal might look like, so it looks like we will leave the EU without any kind of agreement in place. The exit arrangement and free trade deal all should've been wrapped up by now, but on the UK side at least, our wonderful government was never serious about leaving the EU in the first place.

    I suppose to be fair to Ken Clarke, he has never wavered from being fervently pro-EU and no reporter has ever questioned him on what he sees as the plusses of a federalised EU

    I've no issue with him. As you say, he has always been consistently pro EU.

  • Jo Swinson: Clarke and Harman prepared to lead emergency government

    Senior Tory Ken Clarke and former deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman are both prepared to lead an emergency government to avoid a no-deal Brexit, Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson has said.

    Ms Swinson rejected Jeremy Corbyn's proposal that he should be caretaker PM if he wins a vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson's government.

    She said the Labour leader did not have enough support from MPs.

    Here's the story from yesterday about Clarke and Harman and I'll dig up the ones about Hammond and Bercow too in a minute, as those were the other significant Brexit stories of the week. Good job there's no time wasting going on, isn't there?...:rolleyes:

    Luckily the opposition are divided. Corbyn is not keen on Clarke, Harman and especially Jo Swinson and everyone else hates Corbyn which makes Boris' job a lot easier.

  • 1 Firstly song lyrics and now a poem, this thread is becoming very artistic.8o

    2 I agree with all that until I came to the "but we can hardly blame the EU for insisting on it being sequential," bit. Yes, we bloody can! It was their idea and, unfortunately for the UK, May capitulated to their demands on Day One of the negotiations.

    3 We cannot even properly sign off any agreed exit arrangements (should they miraculously materialise in the next two months) until we've had some idea of what a future trade deal might look like, so it looks like we will leave the EU without any kind of agreement in place. The exit arrangement and free trade deal all should've been wrapped up by now, but on the UK side at least, our wonderful government was never serious about leaving the EU in the first place.

    4 I've no issue with him. As you say, he has always been consistently pro EU.

    1 I've always been a big fan of Hollywood Musicals and the lyrics. It's an attempted equivalent of saying it with flowers, which probably doesn't cut much ice with the hedgehog

    2 You're right, I was slightly rewriting history. What I was trying to say is that the EU would be nuts to waste their time discussing a trade deal with a country that is incapable of negotiating a withdrawal agreement. Granted, this was because of May's ineptitude and you could either argue that the EU took advantage of that or you go along with WC Field's maxim: never give a sucker an even break. Least of all a sucker so arrogant and presumptuous in telling the EU what they want rather than asking.

    3 I'm sure we could have combined the two if we hadn't behaved as above

    4 But the idea of Dear Old Ken being the impartial or even-handed govt-caretaker-in-chief rather than a 100% remainer would make that arrangement an even greater farce than it already is

    their aal

    2

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