Guns, Guns, Guns. America loves Guns.

  • An Obama-era regulation that tightened gun checks on mentally ill buyers has been blocked by the US Senate and could be signed into law by the White House.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38986147


    Do Americans have to accept that their children could easily be shot and killed in school and this is just a "normal" risk of school life? Should Americans just accept that their inner cities will always be torn apart by gun wielding drugs gangs? And should Americans accept that if little Bobby Jnr finds his dad's gun and goes out playing cowboys and indians with his friends, that the consequences are inevitable...?


    Will Americans ever shake off their addiction to guns?

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  • I think as far as many Americans go, guns are part of their culture. Many people feel they need them as self defence which is true because if they banned guns, the criminals would keep theirs anyway. Our American relatives don't have one in the house ( He wants but one but she says 'No.' ) but the menfolk still go off to shooting ranges and fire deadly weapons at targets every so often.


    It's that macho experience I expect, although to be honest, many here would be exactly the same if the opportunity arose.

  • I been there a few times and it's obviously a different country, culture all that. It's a vast country and in many areas, people are very isolated, so I can understand them wanting guns. But in the middle of cities?? And what can you do with a machine gun, other than kill an awful lot of people very quickly?

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  • Trouble is I don't think many Americans have actually read what is written in the second amendment:


    Quote

    As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives, with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights prepared by scribe William Lambert, the amendment says:[32][A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


    Note: A well regulated Militia. Wiki

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

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  • More than twenty people have been killed and at least 100 injured in a mass shooting at a Las Vegas concert.


    A gunman opened fire from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel toward an open-air music festival being held close by

    When I created this thread, it wasn't my intention to post about every single gun incident in America here, but this topic seems a good enough place to stick this Las Vegas incident in.


    We (in the UK), thank god, rarely get stories such as this. Hungerford probably being the worst gun incident in the UK, but for Americans this is a daily occurrence.


    As I said in my OP, will Americans ever shake off their addiction to guns?

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  • Have to see who dunnit first and why. Some CNN reports were saying that this sort of thing is an act of terrorisation on civilians. It was obviously planned as the gunman had plenty of ammo and a military style weapon. He was holed up on the 32nd floor so he could pick off as many strangers as he could by firing into the crowd. Plus, the cops are looking for his partner.

  • When will America ever learn that to stop this you have to ban guns?


    There may always be crazed and deranged people, but if you lesson the damage that these people can potentially inflict on others, it seems the obvious route to take, except in America.


    On the terrorism point, LW, if you have someone killed as a result of being shot, you probably wouldn't make a distinction between a criminal act and a terrorist one, although the two things are very different. Terrorism and terrorist acts being a method of warfare on another.


    I don't think this 64 year old was interested in war, he just wanted peace and quiet, saw red and as always the case in these situations, had access to a machine gun and reacted. Without the gun, he probably would've calmed down within ten minutes at the noise coming from the concert. Now he's dead along with him, all the others he's slaughter. What a waster of human life.


    What will the response from America's gun lobby be to this massacre? It's obvious, they'll say there's needs to be more gun carrying people around to protect from the crazies.:cursing::cursing:X(

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  • They found m ore guns in his room. I don't know why he went postal, but I agree that the guns these folk are permitted to own includes military style weapons, so this kind of horror story is common, although this one is apparently the worst of its kind in American history.


    God only knows what got into him. He's 64 years old. No one who is sane could ever lean out of a window and slaughter all those people on a whim. There will be more to him than that. I hope. I don't like to think people will do this sort of damage just because they are miffed at a concert. He will have "mental health issues". Which doesn't bring anyone back nor does it heal the injuries that are going to change lives forever.

  • I've freely admitted here, I'm not 100% myself (especially when trying to read and adsorb a certain poster's very detailed posts!;)) and struggle with things. But I'm not sure that if I did have a machine gun in my drawer when the "leader" of my scum neighbours (the now dead one) was abusing my elderly mother, my dying father and damaging their properly, that I wouldn't have got out the gun and blew his fucking head off. Perhaps I might have taken the gun to the rest of his clan too, it would've have saved me a lot of problems to come!


    I think when talking about mental disorders, I think we maybe overlooking one very simple human emotion. Rage. If you see red, you can do very erratic things. If you then have access to a machine gun, coupled with that extreme rage, I think a man (it usually is a man) is capable of anything. I don't rule out mental disorders too, but I'm just saying this bloke could've got so pissed off with the noise, he may not been able to sleep, that he saw red and in that instant, reacted in a terrible way. Either that, or he was just nuts.

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  • I'd say he was nuts, then that something enraged him and he targeted it with an arsenal. On the other hand, he may have carefully planned the whole thing, still due to rage and targeting. But it was a country music concert in a hick region. One expects this in America. It wasn't as though he were being forced to endure an opera.


    The intriguing bit is what were his motives? He will probably turn out to be the usual bipolar, borderline schizo who flipped. Most of them end up this way, even the Islamic radicals. Non of them are normal. Normal folk don't go round blowing innocent people to kingdom come or engaging in mass murder.

  • I agree LW.


    Just saw the lunchtime news on the BBC and they said he had a arsenal of weapons in his room, which is exactly what you said. You don't go on holiday taking a load of guns. This was premeditated murder, not a case of someone seeing red.


    Does his motives really matter? He was nuts and had machine guns.

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  • He had ten rifles and killed himself apparently. Sounds like a religiously oriented attack. There were people in the crowd who said "you're all going to die!" Suspiciously group related if that is true.

  • The American gun laws are totally insane. Why on earth would a normal human being need a machine gun? Surely if the lawmakers stopped that before moving on to other restrictions it would at least reduce the problem. The American public aren't ever going to give up their guns voluntarily.

  • The American gun laws are totally insane. Why on earth would a normal human being need a machine gun? Surely if the lawmakers stopped that before moving on to other restrictions it would at least reduce the problem. The American public aren't ever going to give up their guns voluntarily.

    Up until about a year ago, Trump was in favour on a ban on assault rifles, but to gain favour with the gun lobby, he changed his mind.


    As you say, would would anyone need a machine gun. It has but one use, to kill as many people in a short-a-time as possible. A weapon of war.


    Every time gun laws have gone in front of congress, a hard core group of republicans has blocked it. Perhaps someone should check who pays for their expense accounts and all the other "little" extras these politicians get.

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  • This is very weird, the gunman was a retired accountant of all things. Something is not adding up. Soon enough the police will discover something else. Retired accountants with no history of gun lunacy just don't do this sort of thing.

  • Oh, god, now its 58 dead and 515 injured. This makes no sense as an act of the angries. It's far more serious than that no matter what he doesn't appear to have been associated with. It's a mass slaughter and it was planned. His suicide afterwards is also ominous.

  • It emerges that the gunman is a multi-millionaire! His father was a bank robber, but that doesn't seem to be of much help as this isn't a crime in that context but an atrocity against humanity.


    They found an arsenal at his home and stuff to make explosives in his car. This isn't just an angry person, this is something else. The fact that no one suspected means he is a good, secretive planner. The only people who do this so well tend to have strong beliefs in something, a mission connected to it and a will to sacrifice themselves to it.


    Doesn't look good. No doubt the truth will come out soon.

  • True, we used to have arsenal owners where I am too until they put the lid on that and there have been fewer family shootings and random rage attacks ever since. But the scale of a premeditated atrocity such as this one does go beyond the ordinary gun mad collector, certainly.


    They are now suggesting he is a "psychopath" simply because the FBI suggested long ago that his father was one, but that isn't much good either. Trump called the act "evil" and that I will wholeheartedly go along with. Psychopathy doesn't wash if it's only going to become apparent in this form at the age of 64 and give no outward signs and "cowardice", although a term that makes people feel better about it, doesn't do either.


    These people aren't engaging in cowardly acts they are engaging in ideological acts, or acts of hatred motivated by strong belief and often both and if the hatred is going to encompass masses of strangers then there has to be an ideology driving it. Mass murderers usually have a huge chip or a belief system, usually cult-like.


    They will find out what motivated him, it's only a matter of time. I think the shock of it is causing confusion at the moment.


    I don't know if the people who were telling the crowd that "you're all going to die" are real or not but if they are then you can't discount this as the act of a lone wolf either. But these accounts might just be a feature of crowd hysteria.


    Meanwhile the death count has risen to 59.

  • I cannot believe the attitudes of some of the pro gun lobby in the states. I've heard several interviews and the comments they come out with are ridiculous. One put forward the nonsensical argument ' Banning guns won't stop the killing. People have been killed in Europe by terrorists driving vehicles at them, are you going to ban cars? ' :rolleyes:

  • The problem in America is the NRA or whatever they are called, have too many friends in positions of power and influence for any proper gun legislation and control to occur.

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • I worked with an American chap who owned 100 guns and talked about them almost every evening. Strangely he seemed totally normal. It's not enough over there just to own a silly amount of guns.

    Did he ever say what he did with those 100 guns?


    On the BBC last night, they said that there are at least as many guns in America as people, so at least 350 million of these things are lying around. 30k deaths are caused by guns each year, that's more that all the coalition soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan put together.

    I cannot believe the attitudes of some of the pro gun lobby in the states. I've heard several interviews and the comments they come out with are ridiculous. One put forward the nonsensical argument ' Banning guns won't stop the killing. People have been killed in Europe by terrorists driving vehicles at them, are you going to ban cars? ' :rolleyes:

    Oh, how I miss Fox News...


    I am sure there have been loons on there over the last few days calling for more guns.

    The problem in America is the NRA or whatever they are called, have too many friends in positions of power and influence for any proper gun legislation and control to occur.

    Perhaps when the NRA next have their annual meeting, someone might walk in with a gun....

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  • He used to take them out and shoot them! He had all sorts including historical weapons and rifles from around the world. He told us about the Oklahoma full auto shoot where, amongst other things, they roll a car down one side of a valley full of explosives while shooters line up on the other side blasting away at it until it goes up... A perfectly healthy pursuit surely??

  • Sounds rather fun, to be honest, but I have never touched (or would ever want to touch) a gun.

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  • Always smile when I go shopping in the states with wife's cousin , Wal-Mart today, we need some detergent, milk , biscuits and 9mm pistol ammo.

    Why a constitution over 200 years old is still seen as relevant is the biggest problem, the real problems of 1776 are not the same as 2017.

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