Will Trump encourage the revival of Iran?

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  • 5 I agree with you. The UK was stupid grabbing your tanker near Gibraltar and thinking Iran wouldn't do the same with their tanker near their coastline. I think Iran is right not to care about EU rules, regulations or points of law about sanctions. Your action was a justifiable proportional measure-for-measure retaliation. The fact that Britain is now pompously huffing & puffing would be laughable if it wasn't so embarrassing.

    You were going so well there, until this bit.


    We seized the Iranian tanker under international law as it was about to illegally supply Syria with oil. Iran had no legal justification for grabbing our tanker.


    I agree though that this is all not only embarrassing but dangerous. We should've either stopped all our shipping in that region when we seized that tanker or sent military escorts, which we don't have. At least this gives Boris an excuse to sack Hunt over when he becomes PM on Wednesday.


    Trump started all this by ripping up the nuclear deal and according to Mike Pompeo today, Britain can "get on with it." Who needs enemies when you have allies like that?:rolleyes:

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  • 1 Gee, thanks!


    2 Iran have their rules, we and the EU have ours. Interesting that Spain, a member of the EU, was pretty relaxed about the Iran tanker and had no inclination to hijack or confiscate it. I know you're a stickler for rules - very British! - and you know I'm not - and on this occasion sadly I suspect you and Jeremy Hunt and all the nodding dogs in Parliament on his side of the aisle are of one voice on this. Just like everyone pompously closing ranks on supporting "Our Schmuck in Washington" for souring relations with our traditional ally by conveying undiplomatic indiscreet unoriginal and opinionated remarks about Trump through non-secure means to a leaky number of people. Also, when you say "we seized the Iranian tanker under International Law ....." who is "We"? A captain with a framed notice hanging in his cabin saying "rules are rules"? Did he ask anyone for permission? Who? Could the person who gave permission happen to be our deadheaded Prime Minister who Britain is lumbered with for just a few more mischief-making hours? Didn't WW1 start with some similar idiotic decision? If you were captain, would you personally and unilaterally have made that decision? Are you trying to start a war? That's very un-Trump! We're going to have to swap ships with Iran. You know it. I know it. Iran knows it. Boris knows it. The trouble is, Parliament doesn't know it. They'd rather thwart Boris and than prevent a war.


    3 You're right, we should have stopped sending ships through those waters or given them a military escort. You do realise though, don't you, that the ship grabbed by Iran wasn't really British. It was just registered as British. So each country taking that route takes its chances. All of the EU, including us, need to pool our marine escorting facilities. Because our naval resources alone are about the size of those in that Peter Sellers movie "The Mouse That Roared". So where's the escort help from the EU? That'll be the day!


    4 You're right, America said "Britain can get on with it". You do know, don't you, that America had a couple of days prior, offered to supply the UK with a naval escort/protection through the Hormuz Straits but we said "no thanks". You can guess why. Because we didn't want Iran to tar us with an American brush. Least of all, a trigger happy brush. That's Britain all over, a United Kingdom of Fence Sitters. I would reverse your viewpoint by saying that, from America's standpoint, with allies like us, who needs enemies?!


    5 Everyone is bitching about Trump cancelling the nuclear deal. I too am unhappy about it. I wish I could find out more. It has been kept a secret how much money America had to pay Iran but I understand the amount was obscene and was delivered to Iran in gold and dollars in cargo planes as if to an South American drug cartel! I also understand that the EU's financial contribution was a pittance, if anything at all. I think the EU's main contribution was to join America by imposing sanctions. Bad play. Yes, Iran is feeling the pinch, but it won't buckle. Trump did offer to negotiate with Iran. He just wants to trade with, not fight Iran. But Iran rebuffed him. I suspect Iran thinks their guerrilla or terrorist tactics can prevail and become America's Second Vietnam. I suspect eventually Israel might have something to contribute here in demolition efficiency ..... if only it can hurry up and find a leader who isn't a financial crook

  • You seem surprised that the US are annoyed with us asking for something days after turning them down !

  • True, but that's what many in the American administration want, an escalation.

    4 You're right, America said "Britain can get on with it". You do know, don't you, that America had a couple of days prior, offered to supply the UK with a naval escort/protection through the Hormuz Straits but we said "no thanks". You can guess why. Because we didn't want Iran to tar us with an American brush. Least of all, a trigger happy brush. That's Britain all over, a United Kingdom of Fence Sitters. I would reverse your viewpoint by saying that, from America's standpoint, with allies like us, who needs enemies?!

    As soon as Trump ripped up the nuclear deal, we should've been prepared for this by either removing our ships from the region and (oh, if they're British registered, then the responsibility is ours, regardless of the ship's origin country) or providing sufficient military assets to protect the shipping lanes.


    I agree about the brush but as the painting has already started, which picture do we want to paint here?

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  • I suspect eventually Israel might have something to contribute here in demolition efficiency ..... if only it can hurry up and find a leader who isn't a financial crook.

    Ha! Important aspect, that! :thumbup:

    You only live twice, or so it seems

    One life for yourself, and one for your dreams


  • 5 Everyone is bitching about Trump cancelling the nuclear deal. I too am unhappy about it. I wish I could find out more. It has been kept a secret how much money America had to pay Iran but I understand the amount was obscene and was delivered to Iran in gold and dollars in cargo planes as if to an South American drug cartel! I also understand that the EU's financial contribution was a pittance, if anything at all. I think the EU's main contribution was to join America by imposing sanctions. Bad play. Yes, Iran is feeling the pinch, but it won't buckle. Trump did offer to negotiate with Iran. He just wants to trade with, not fight Iran. But Iran rebuffed him. I suspect Iran thinks their guerrilla or terrorist tactics can prevail and become America's Second Vietnam. I suspect eventually Israel might have something to contribute here in demolition efficiency ..... if only it can hurry up and find a leader who isn't a financial crook

    We need to quickly decide whether to now side with the Americans and insist that Iran engage with us on all their actions in the region, including their support of the their various terrorist groups, or do we focus purely on the nuclear stuff for now and alienate Trump and his team.

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  • Ha! Important aspect, that! :thumbup:

    That would only come if Iran were close to The Bomb which they're not yet thanks to the deal that Trump ripped up, or if things escalate out of control which is possible now with all this tanker nonsense. That's why its important we engage with Iran on the nuclear deal and get that back on track.


    I doubt Israel would attack Iran without America's explicit support.

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  • 5 Everyone is bitching about Trump cancelling the nuclear deal. I too am unhappy about it. I wish I could find out more. It has been kept a secret how much money America had to pay Iran but I understand the amount was obscene and was delivered to Iran in gold and dollars in cargo planes as if to an South American drug cartel! I also understand that the EU's financial contribution was a pittance, if anything at all.

    I've often wondered about that! Paying large sums of money to encourage others to be friendly and cooperative doesn't work, as the UK has discovered with the EU. They just demand more and more, and are guaranteed to be the opposite of friendly and cooperative when the blood money dries up.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • The enemies of one's enemies are seldom one's friends. One must pick one's friends with more circumspection.

    You only live twice, or so it seems

    One life for yourself, and one for your dreams


  • 1 Nice analogy! My view is that Britain is already tarred with near enough the same brush, either an American ally or one of the seemingly powerful interfering imperialists all those years ago arbitrarily redrawing the map of Arabia to their own greedy geo-political oil ends. I don't think that means we have to automatically side with Trumpamerica's abandonment of the nuclear deal but can't we be more constructive than just that by pointing out that it takes two to tango and if Iran refuses to accept Trump's open-door invitation to negotiate a solution to the impasse (he just wants to trade for Chrissake!) then WTF does Iran expect instead to accomplish? Our country need to contribute to America's thinking rather than just puff protestingly and unthinkingly. That's was once what was Great about Britain. So, yes, I'd welcome America's naval escort but I'd want the whole world to know, including Iran, hat I'm seeking to discuss with America (and maybe even act as go-between) on how to break the impasse. Where is today's Kissinger?


    2 I disagree with you that an escalation is Trumpamerica's preference. It appears to be John Bolton's but even that could be a good cop bad cop strategy. I suspect Trumpamerica's strategic stance is to appear sad and regretful that it would be a crying shame if they were given no choice but to reduce Iran to rubble at the blink of an eye.


    3 Agreed - buy, hey, when was the last time Britain was prepared? And actually, it's not just being prepared is it? It's also knowing what we can do about something if it occurs. We haven't got the ships! Even on our own shores we can't repel an unarmed invasion of dinghies! When interviewers ask a politician a what-if question the response is to refuse to answer it because it's hypothetical! I'm waiting for an interviewer to reply "I know you don't play chess but can't you at least play draughts? Do you regard thinking ahead as out of bounds because it's all hypothetical?


    4 Disagree entirely. Where the boat is registered is just a tax dodge. It's you who is making out that it's bona fide British. It's as authentically and legally as British as a Russian gangster oligarch buying a company and a house in Britain and becoming a British tax payer. The crew on that pirated tanker don't include any Brits!


    5 What assets? America's? We don't have any - or barely enough. This is Britain's Suez Sequel. What's the betting some British asshole will any day now warble on about "lessons learned"?

  • One the issues in my challenging exchange with Horizon was about whether Britain should have accepted Trumpamerica's offer of a military escort. Apparently the offer was refused to avoid being seen in Iran's eyes to be tarred with an American brush. My viewpoint was that we already were, historically and currently.


    I have just learnt from a reliable source that the decision to refuse America's help was made by Theresa May


    Thank God for world security that this mischievously malignant moron has finally ceased to be Prime Minister.


    Her autobiography, as soon as it's published, will be on sale at £3.99 in Sainsbury's. The one's sold without her signature will be more expensive because they will be rarer.


  • Do you realize that we are humans? We will not deal with USA. They broke the contract we had.


    Tell me how we can still look in the mirror if we get humilated like that and then do as ordered?


    Our givernment made it clear. We start negotiate with USA, when they accept the deal we had.


    If we do as Trump wishs, we will be slaughtered like sheep. Who says the americans will not cancel new deal as way and make a even worse for us. And then again and again.


    No. USA is a deal breaker, contracts not worth the paper written on them.


    USA cant attack us. They fear war and we know that. Its better for us to keep status quo and show how weak trump is.

  • casablanca


    I'm not saying that Trump per se wants a escalation, but some in his administration do. Don't forget it's the Americans who ripped up the nuclear deal bringing about this situation to begin with. And we've spoken abut Bolton before, who is hardline but no fool. As you say it could be a good cop, bad cop thing.


    Hard to disagree with you about your description about the "British" ship, which if Boris takes that view too, then we have nothing to negotiate about or fight about, unless the Iranians take another...

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  • No. USA is a deal breaker, contracts not worth the paper written on them.

    Regardless of who broke the deal, if it is a bad deal, then it should be changed. Regardless of who is involved.


    We want to break our deal with the EU because we got a bad deal. It is legal to do that, otherwise nobody would ever agree anything as it would be for perpetuity with no escape.


    If Iran thinks it is illegal to break the deal, then sue the USA instead of using threats and all the posturing. The fact that Iran is so keen to keep the agreed deal indicates it must be a very good deal for Iran, and very bad for the USA.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Regardless of who broke the deal, if it is a bad deal, then it should be changed. Regardless of who is involved.


    We want to break our deal with the EU because we got a bad deal. It is legal to do that, otherwise nobody would ever agree anything as it would be for perpetuity with no escape.


    If Iran thinks it is illegal to break the deal, then sue the USA instead of using threats and all the posturing. The fact that Iran is so keen to keep the agreed deal indicates it must be a very good deal for Iran, and very bad for the USA.

    And you want a very bad deal for us. If we bow now, we would lose evrything. We would show that we can be pushed into vasall status.

  • And you want a very bad deal for us. If we bow now, we would lose evrything. We would show that we can be pushed into vasall status.

    Who said that? I said NOBODY should accept a bad deal, and that includes Iran. Stop being so bloody prickly!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Who said that? I said NOBODY should accept a bad deal, and that includes Iran. Stop being so bloody prickly!

    The deal as it is stands. If USA want a new deal they first have to come back into the old deal. We only accept talks with respect. Breaking the old deal is disrespect. And as it looks now, Trump melts down, because we ignore him.

  • There is your problem! You make unrealistic demands and then act all aggressive when your demands are not met, but yet you would criticise the USA if they took the same approach. It's called double standards and means you won't get an amicable agreement.


    I have great sympathy for anyone trying to negotiate with someone that holds your attitude. You are losing support, because of your attitude.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Be interesting to see how Boris handles this situation.


    He used to get on well with the Iranian foreign minister when he was foreign secretary, that was up until Boris opened his big gob which led to that woman's imprisonment in Iran...:rolleyes:


    We don't have the war ships to protect our shipping, so would Boris ask Trump? That would send a very subservient signal to the Americans, so I don't think that will happen and so the likely situation for now is that Boris tries and gets the French and a few others to help with sea lane protection and then tries to get the nuclear deal back on course but with the view to expanding it out to the other areas like terrorism which the Americans want.

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  • There is your problem! You make unrealistic demands and then act all aggressive when your demands are not met, but yet you would criticise the USA if they took the same approach. It's called double standards and means you won't get an amicable agreement.


    I have great sympathy for anyone trying to negotiate with someone that holds your attitude. You are losing support, because of your attitude.

    So its an unrealistic demand to be treated fair and equal.


    Fact stands, we dont negotiate under pressure. USA can come back into old agreement and then we talk or not at all.

  • So its an unrealistic demand to be treated fair and equal.


    Fact stands, we dont negotiate under pressure. USA can come back into old agreement and then we talk or not at all.

    You twist every word. Nobody ... and I mean NOBODY, has said that Iran should not be treated fairly, and the same goes for the USA, the UK, and every other country in the world. Why should Iran be allowed to dictate to other countries, which is what you appear to want. You want it all your own way, and that is what will escalate tensions.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • You twist every word. Nobody ... and I mean NOBODY, has said that Iran should not be treated fairly, and the same goes for the USA, the UK, and every other country in the world. Why should Iran be allowed to dictate to other countries, which is what you appear to want. You want it all your own way, and that is what will escalate tensions.

    Don't you think Darioush has been a useful education for us? He is I'm sure entirely representative of the Iranian psyche. There is no arguing or debating with him. He's like a sex-changed or body-snatched Theresa May, although more articulate. It's not that either side is in the right or blame-free. It's that the door and the mind is closed on the Iranian side. There are other countries like that around the world but I'm certain they do not include Britain or America


    It has been useful for us in the West to understanding why it's almost completely futile to try and reason with such a country that contains people of that mentality.


    About 30-40 years ago I saw a paperback in Heathrow with the title: "Understanding the West's problems in the Middle East in 50 pages". I found the title very tempting and almost bought it. At the last minute I stopped because I already realised I had the answer: "they're mad buggers". Nothing has changed my mind. All the sophisticated analysis of Middle East political structures and history and tribalism and religious enmities has not altered, except that after 9-11 and all that has followed, I must add to my 3-word prognosis: ".... and they want to kill us"

  • Don't you think Darioush has been a useful education for us? He is I'm sure entirely representative of the Iranian psyche. There is no arguing or debating with him. He's like a sex-changed or body-snatched Theresa May, although more articulate. It's not that either side is in the right or blame-free. It's that the door and the mind is closed on the Iranian side. There are other countries like that around the world but I'm certain they do not include Britain or America


    It has been useful for us in the West to understanding why it's almost completely futile to try and reason with such a country that contains people of that mentality.


    About 30-40 years ago I saw a paperback in Heathrow with the title: "Understanding the West's problems in the Middle East in 50 pages". I found the title very tempting and almost bought it. At the last minute I stopped because I already realised I had the answer: "they're mad buggers". Nothing has changed my mind. All the sophisticated analysis of Middle East political structures and history and tribalism and religious enmities has not altered, except that after 9-11 and all that has followed, I must add to my 3-word prognosis: ".... and they want to kill us"


    I dont want kill anyone.


    There are basic principles. We want respect. Iran already accepted harsher controls over our nuclear program than any other nation in the world. Far above what the IAEO suggests. IT was not easy to do so, but we accepted it and hoped for better relations.


    The hardliners here said teh west is not trustworthy...and then we saw they were right.


    Trump broke a deal we made. He broke it and demands that we accept even harsher conditions. No nation with self respect can let this happen.


    He broke the deal and put pressure on us. If we accept this, the whole world will laugh about Iran. We will be slaughtered like a lamb.


    1. We dont negotiate under pressure. You either negotiate in a respectful manner with us or no negotiations at all.


    2. What you do to us, we do to you. The UK can learn this right now. they took our ship, we took theirs. They get their ship back, when we get ours back.


    You say the door and mind is closed on our side. What do you want from us? That we kneel? Is that the open mindness you expect from us?


    The UK send an envoy to Iran they said. Our president said we can make a swap. Our ship for theirs. I hope the UK is open minded and follows the proposal.


    On a sidenote, i want to know one thing. If we do back off and start a new negotiation with trump, where will be the limit to humilate us?


    What is positive about this, is how we showed how things are.


    The USA is afraid to go to war with us. The UK is too weak to protect its own assets and stands on worldstage humilated.


    And our ultimatum is running as well. The west has 60 days to fullfill its comittments from our deal or we go back into high enriching uranium

  • Same old, same old. Twist everything people say! You carry on parroting yourself, as you aren't interested in any other persons views.


    I am not knocking Iran. It's you and your attitude that I reject. I hope your government are not like you.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Same old, same old. Twist everything people say! You carry on parroting yourself, as you aren't interested in any other persons views.


    I am not knocking Iran. It's you and your attitude that I reject. I hope your government are not like you.


    Im a liberal young man. We have people in our government you cant imagine. If you have a problem with a young iranian who travels alot loves all countries ad talks with others, i wonder what you think about some of our leaders who are absolute hardcore.


    I´m interested in your views. What should Iran do?


    Tell me please.

  • Grow up and act like an adult would be a good start, instead of the 'I want, I want', and 'aren't I wonderful' rhetoric.You don't talk 'to' others at all. You talk 'at' them. We Brits are quite modest but you just tell everyone how wonderful you and your country are and every other country is subjected to insults by you. You obviously haven't read the good book of 'how to win friends and influence people'.


    You act as if you are a victim but you behave like a bigger thug than those you criticise. If you want respect, then try giving some, instead of hurling insults at all and sundry and retaliating in an aggressive manner, just like your government.


    Now bog off! I have lost patience with you. Your attitude drives people away and this is the result.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Grow up and act like an adult would be a good start, instead of the 'I want, I want', and 'aren't I wonderful' rhetoric.You don't talk 'to' others at all. You talk 'at' them. We Brits are quite modest but you just tell everyone how wonderful you and your country are and every other country is subjected to insults by you. You obviously haven't read the good book of 'how to win friends and influence people'.


    You act as if you are a victim but you behave like a bigger thug than those you criticise. If you want respect, then try giving some, instead of hurling insults at all and sundry and retaliating in an aggressive manner, just like your government.


    Now bog off! I have lost patience with you. Your attitude drives people away and this is the result.

    The UK and USA made a coup in Iran, toppled our PM and installed the Shah. A tyrant who murdered tenthousands, tortured and was corrupted to the core. As he ruled, BP got billions of $ from Iran.


    After the Shah was kicked out Iran, the UK and USA supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq. He attacked Iran. It was a 8 year war. The UK sold Iraq weapons, even poison gas. 800.000 Iranians died in that war.


    How modest was it from your Maghret Thatcher to sell Sarin to Saddam Hussein?


    We could do no crime big enough to match what UK and USA did.


    We are no victims. Victims are weak. We accept what happened and make sure this will never happen again.


    You take our tanker? We take yours. You use violence against us? We will do same to you.


    The behavior you see, is the result of historic events.


    We dont want win the UK as friends. We expect the UK to act rational or pay the price

  • 1 For the issues which are at stake (peace and trade) there is pressure on both sides. Without pressure there would be little or no need to negotiate. That is why to say “we don’t negotiate under pressure” is idiotic. Pressure is a raison d'etre for negotiation

    2. You kill negotiation by saying “what you do to us, we do to you”. It’s obvious that point can be easily resolved so why start an argument prior to negotiation? One has to wonder why Iran has not responded to the US invitation to negotiate and see where it leads. The answer has to be that Iran just wants to argue and fight and kill. It is addicted to having enemies. Britain is pompous, pedantic, stubborn and argumentative among themselves, with delusions of grandeur lost over a century ago which they may or may not reclaim. Your country on the other is oppressive, bestial and psychotic. I don’t see much prospect of achieving middle ground. I would recommend you negotiate with America, not us (see 3 below).

    3 You ask “what do you want from us? Trump already told you. It was to trade. You ask if the US wants you to “kneel”. You are talking like a child. The invitation was to negotiate. Look it up in the dictionary. It doesn’t say anything about kneeling.

    4 I share your hope that the UK is “open minded” and agrees on “our ship for theirs”. Up until now the UK has been handicapped by its Prime Minister who has turned out to be mentally backwards and a waste of time and opportunity. Our new Prime Minister will most probably be better (he can hardly be worse!) but initially he will be handicapped by a Parliamentary Assembly who are a bunch of squabbling eunuchs. I suggest Iran negotiate with Trump in the US and if successful he will tell Britain to swap tankers.

    5 You ask, “if negotiating with Trump where will be the limit to humiliate us?” The answer to that is simple. It’s where and how you decide to humiliate yourself. No one can do that for you.

    6 You say “ “What is positive about this, is how we showed how things are”. I say “erh?”

    7 Your pathetic dick-comparing point is already answered. Grow up and get real.

    8 In a funny tragic kind of way your uranium ultimatum is tremendously helpful, both to the West generally and Israel in particular – and it doesn’t make much difference whether you are a shill, stooge or just a typical citizen of Iran – either way you and your country’s outlook represent a global menace and amply justifies why Trump cancelled the nuclear deal.



  • But we do negotiate. We tried to negotiate two weeks with UK. Only when they extended to hold our tanker for 30 more days it was time to act.


    And as you see, now new dynamics are created. The UK send an envoy to Iran and we will most likely simply swap our ships.


    Why was this not possible before we took the british ship? I find this unfortunate.


    As for USA, we do negotiate. We even open up informal channels. But several points are not negotiable.


    1. We will never give up our rocket program. Nothing will change that.


    2. We will never give up nuclear program. Like all nations, Iran has a right for nuclear power.


    You say we are opressive, bestial and psychotic. Iran did never do crimes like the USA or UK did.


    Ever heared Fanny Corchrane Smith singing?



    She was the last tasmanian. This recording the lst and only recording of the tasmanian language.


    The british killed evry single tasmanian, erased a culture from this planet that lasted over 60.000 years.


    Its just one of your peoples many crimes. The british starved millions of indians to death.


    In our 2500 years as a nation, we never did a genocide.


    The UK did countless genocides.


    The USA did extreme crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and other nations.


    The USA are still a great power. The UK though is a midget and we just show that in the persian gulf.


    We are equal humans and we believe we must show the british very well, that we wont play games.


    Call it robust diplomacy.


    I wonder what Trump will offer us. Because we will not offer anything substantial above wat we have already offered

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