Harry Dunn death

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  • PM's plea to US to rethink immunity over Harry Dunn fatal crash

    The prime minister has urged the US to reconsider giving a diplomat's wife immunity after she left the UK despite being a suspect in a fatal crash.

    Anne Sacoolas is wanted for questioning over the death of motorcyclist Harry Dunn in Northamptonshire on 27 August.

    The US State Department said diplomatic immunity was "rarely waived".

    Boris Johnson said the UK would speak to the US ambassador and "if we can't resolve it then... I will be raising it myself with the White House".

    If the the wives of foreign diplomats can mow down our people at will and not suffer any consequences of their actions, should we reconsider the diplomatic immunity that protects them?

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • Short answer - YES!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • should we reconsider the diplomatic immunity that protects them?

    The knee jerk answer is yes but consider this: Suppose an unfriendly government "constructs" a car smash or some other "crime", our man/woman has returned to the uk, then said country demends the extradition of one of our citizens for trial?

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

    If my post is in this colour  it is moderation. Take note.

  • The knee jerk answer is yes but consider this: Suppose an unfriendly government "constructs" a car smash or some other "crime", our man/woman has returned to the uk, then said country demends the extradition of one of our citizens for trial?

    Why would they bother. Wouldn't it be easier for them to be the 'victim' of a crash?

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • "Dominic Raab heckled as Harry Dunn family left out of hustings"


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-…northamptonshire-50553055


    These parents are just making a nuisance of themselves. They may well feel angry over the death of their son but this is no way to alleviate that anger

    I don't blame the organisers for barring them from this event

    What's the betting they will be on GMB or Breakfast shortly

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I dont think any parent of a child killed by a woman who did a runner would sit back and accept diplomatic immunity is a good thing at the level/status applied in this case. I would return of my own volition and get on my knees weeping and say sorry to the parents of the child I killed.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • I dont think any parent of a child killed by a woman who did a runner would sit back and accept diplomatic immunity is a good thing at the level/status applied in this case. I would return of my own volition and get on my knees weeping and say sorry to the parents of the child I killed.

    She has effectively said as such but this has failed to satisfy these parents who seem to be determined to achieve what, I do not know. None of it will bring their son back

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • She has effectively said as such but this has failed to satisfy these parents who seem to be determined to achieve what, I do not know. None of it will bring their son back

    So lets stretch your principle point...... Mr and Mrs xxx son is stabbed to death. Police seek to catch the killer... is OK it wont bring my son back so stop investigating the matter as we do not care about bringing the killer to justice. ???????????????????????????????????

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • So lets stretch your principle point...... Mr and Mrs xxx son is stabbed to death. Police seek to catch the killer... is OK it wont bring my son back so stop investigating the matter as we do not care about bringing the killer to justice. ???????????????????????????????????

    The answer is very simple. The police seek to catch the killer but discover that he is a foreign citizen who has diplomatic immunity and has used that to flee the country

    Investigation stymied, and filed

    The parents can campaign and kick off but they are not going get the diplomatic immunity rules changed

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • My point is not on whether the policy on Diplomatic Immunity will be changed. I am arguing as to it being right for the woman to do a runner on the basis of protection via Diplomatic Immunity.

    Any law or policy can be changed and often occurs. It takes leadership. Otherwise YOU are saying that anything can be done under cover of Di.


    There are limits, of course: Diplomats can’t go around shooting people without consequences. The United States has the right to declare someone a persona non grata and to send him home for any reason. The official’s home country can also try him at a local court. In the most egregious cases, the home country can waive the official’s immunity privilege, in which case the offending diplomat can face prosecution in the United States. In 1997, for example, the Republic of Georgia waived the immunity of its No. 2 diplomat after he killed a 16-year-old girl from Maryland while driving drunk. He was prosecuted, convicted of manslaughter, and served three years in a North Carolina prison before returning to Georgia, where he was paroled after two more years in prison.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • What the USA does is unpredictable and dependent on which side of the bed got out of in the morning

    The UK of course honours it's international treaties and agreements, especially those drawn up by the UN. Without them it would be mayhem and anarchy

    Why do you suppose it hurts when countries start expelling diplomats and breaking relations?

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • What the USA does is unpredictable and dependent on which side of the bed got out of in the morning

    The UK of course honours it's international treaties and agreements, especially those drawn up by the UN. Without them it would be mayhem and anarchy

    Why do you suppose it hurts when countries start expelling diplomats and breaking relations?

    I dont care. If you kill someone you must answer. Its a licence to kill. So how do you feel knowing that our cops will throw the book at you if you are one over the alcohol consumption permitted level while some dickhead diplomat can get as pissed as a fart and drive all over the place?

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • I dont care. If you kill someone you must answer. Its a licence to kill. So how do you feel knowing that our cops will throw the book at you if you are one over the alcohol consumption permitted level while some dickhead diplomat can get as pissed as a fart and drive all over the place?

    You should be very careful, the mods have all ready instructed us to use the word "Alleged"

    I would have thought that was obvious and evident for someone who claims to have worked in the Police and Crown Courts

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • You should be very careful, the mods have all ready instructed us to use the word "Alleged"

    I would have thought that was obvious and evident for someone who claims to have worked in the Police and Crown Courts

    You are a nasty piece of work. Go forth and multiply. This British Subject will no longer engage with a native such as yourself who is incapable of rational discernment and debate.

    This is my final communication to you. Well done.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • You are a nasty piece of work. Go forth and multiply. This British Subject will no longer engage with a native such as yourself who is incapable of rational discernment and debate.

    This is my final communication to you. Well done.

    Now you are showing your true colours

    Goodbye

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • The answer is very simple. The police seek to catch the killer but discover that he is a foreign citizen who has diplomatic immunity and has used that to flee the country

    Investigation stymied, and filed

    The parents can campaign and kick off but they are not going get the diplomatic immunity rules changed

    My understanding is that someone with diplomatic immunity can be arrested at the scene of a crime, or even shot at or killed by the police in the midst of a crime, but the moment they have access to either legal representation or their countries embassy in the country where the incident occurred, they cannot be touched. (I'm sure someone will correct me if this is wrong).


    Perhaps it would be more appropriate if DI was used only by Embassy officials and only in a case of arrest for really serious crimes such as attack/GBH/manslaughter/rape/murder cases. Whatever one thinks of the actions being taken by the mother of that boy killed, or of the guilty woman fleeing the country, the USA, by putting up a sign more or less stating, "Do your worst, she ain't coming back to face the music" only makes people more angrier than ever that DI is being totally abused.


    Unfortunately, there is nothing we mere mortals can do about it , neither can those poor heartbroken parents who rightly must feel so angry and overwhelmed by the injusice of it all. My heart goes out to them as it must be so hard to start to grieve when they know the person who killed their son (albeit accidentally) will never have to face justice that everyone else would face.

  • My understanding is that someone with diplomatic immunity can be arrested at the scene of a crime, or even shot at or killed by the police in the midst of a crime, but the moment they have access to either legal representation or their countries embassy in the country where the incident occurred, they cannot be touched. (I'm sure someone will correct me if this is wrong).


    Perhaps it would be more appropriate if DI was used only by Embassy officials and only in a case of arrest for really serious crimes such as attack/GBH/manslaughter/rape/murder cases. Whatever one thinks of the actions being taken by the mother of that boy killed, or of the guilty woman fleeing the country, the USA, by putting up a sign more or less stating, "Do your worst, she ain't coming back to face the music" only makes people more angrier than ever that DI is being totally abused.


    Unfortunately, there is nothing we mere mortals can do about it , neither can those poor heartbroken parents who rightly must feel so angry and overwhelmed by the injusice of it all. My heart goes out to them as it must be so hard to start to grieve when they know the person who killed their son (albeit accidentally) will never have to face justice that everyone else would face.

    Your understanding is correct. I agree with your comments. There is no way, as far as I am concerned, any person should be let off from the process of criminal proceedings resulting from criminal behaviour. A diplomat should have more respect not less for the country he/she is residing.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • Our government agreed with the USA some time back that staff working foe the intelligence agencies in the UK would have diplomatic immunity

    I don't know if this is reciprocated but I doubt there are many UK spooks working in the States

    People may not agree with this but for whatever reason this is the agreement and no matter how much the grieving parents object they will not change this

    They have travelled to America and met Trump who had this female in an adjoining room prepared to meet them, which was what they claimed to want at the time

    They should have taken the offer and started to move on

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • Under the Vienna Convention of codified rules on Diplomatic Immunity it is possible to remove a n individual from such protection when they have committed a serious offence, not connected to their position/duty. It is obvious to me that this must be so because no right thinking country or state would/should leave itself to a policy of chaos.

    Our parliamentary system accepts the doctrine/convention: - No previous government can tie the hands of a newly elected government - in other words parliament is supreme. It must therefore follow any government can leave extant agreements if it wishes, and it can.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • Under the Vienna Convention of codified rules on Diplomatic Immunity it is possible to remove a n individual from such protection when they have committed a serious offence, not connected to their position/duty. It is obvious to me that this must be so because no right thinking country or state would/should leave itself to a policy of chaos.

    Our parliamentary system accepts the doctrine/convention: - No previous government can tie the hands of a newly elected government - in other words parliament is supreme. It must therefore follow any government can leave extant agreements if it wishes, and it can.

    That would depend on the country of the individual concerned agreeing to release that individual from immunity. As Trump has already offered to sort this for the parents I cannot seem him making any further concessions

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • This is the 16 year old who was killed by a car driven by an American women who then fled back to the States claiming diplomatic immunity

    His parents have pursued a vigorous campaign on out TV,and including flying to the USA to meet Donald Trump who had arranged for the woman in question to be in an adjoining room to meet them which they refused. They want the woman extradited back to the UK to face justice

    Now whilst I can understand their grief and anger I do wonder where all this will get them, It must be very draining psychologically and financially to what end, nothing will bring their son back and I cannot see the USA agreeing to send the woman back

    They have sought support from our Foreign Sec and now met the Home Sec

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-…northamptonshire-50882657

    Compare this to a couple local to me who's son was born with cerebral palsy and lived a fairly decent life but tragically just died suddenly as a teenager. The did not seek to blame anyone or look for some sort of revenge, they channelled their energy into making and selling wooden reindeers through which they have now raised over £40.000 for the local childrens hospice


    https://www.chsw.org.uk/news/r…holwills-charity-reindeer

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • There is negligence on the part of the diplo woman. It is not an accident in such a case of negligence. BUT FOR... her actions driving said car the lad would be alive. If lightning struck her car sending her in the path of the lad that would be an accident.

    I agree that nothing will be gained by seeking the proverbial "pound of flesh".

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • I agree that nothing will be gained by seeking the proverbial "pound of flesh".

    On the other hand, if foreign diplomats/agents/whatever (and their entire family) are allowed to break UK law with impunity, it sends the wrong message to foreign diplomats that they can be as negligent to UK citizens as they wish. They should respect our laws while in the UK. She broke the law and it wasn't a minor offence. She killed an innocent lad through her carelessness.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • On the other hand, if foreign diplomats/agents/whatever (and their entire family) are allowed to break UK law with impunity, it sends the wrong message to foreign diplomats that they can be as negligent to UK citizens as they wish. They should respect our laws while in the UK. She broke the law and it wasn't a minor offence. She killed an innocent lad through her carelessness.

    There are the international agreements, if one of ours does something similar they could be whisked back here

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • On the other hand, if foreign diplomats/agents/whatever (and their entire family) are allowed to break UK law with impunity, it sends the wrong message to foreign diplomats that they can be as negligent to UK citizens as they wish. They should respect our laws while in the UK. She broke the law and it wasn't a minor offence. She killed an innocent lad through her carelessness.

    I agree. I take account of your comments. Given the current situation legally the obvious result is the diplo woman has killed with impunity. The law, conventions, must be changed. For example could a diplomat collect £500 thousand to shoot Boris then go home and carry on weeding his garden? I make a serious point because if the answer is no then the diplo woman and future similar incidents must not be allowed.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • My view is this, she should return to the UK. The 'sentence' is likely to be very light, ie. a slap on the hand and a suspended sentence (which would keep her out of the UK for a while, which can only be good for both sides).


    That way, justice is served at very little cost to the perpetrator and goes some way towards preventing future occurrences.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • My view is this, she should return to the UK. The 'sentence' is likely to be very light, ie. a slap on the hand and a suspended sentence (which would keep her out of the UK for a while, which can only be good for both sides).


    That way, justice is served at very little cost to the perpetrator and goes some way towards preventing future occurrences.

    She deems it was an accident and faces 12years in prison. She feels her "accident" is outside of serious negligence.. Negligence has a fault factor.

    I once, when driving, leaned over to wipe dirt off a CD and put it in the player... It took 2 seconds.. I crossed the center line and was about 1 inch from hitting an oncoming car. I know loads of people who have messed about putting a CD on when driving. This is negligence... Driving without due care and attention.. It is not an accident, legally speaking, if you hit another vehicle or pedestrian. This is why i always put my phone in the boot of my car.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • She deems it was an accident and faces 12years in prison.

    In theory 14 years, yes. In practice, no chance, unless the UK judiciary wish to make an example of her. Even those maniac drivers who refuse to stop for the police and go on to commit every offence in the book rarely get sentences.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Yes 14 years. I agree. It can be done.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • I agree. I take account of your comments. Given the current situation legally the obvious result is the diplo woman has killed with impunity. The law, conventions, must be changed. For example could a diplomat collect £500 thousand to shoot Boris then go home and carry on weeding his garden? I make a serious point because if the answer is no then the diplo woman and future similar incidents must not be allowed.

    Such is the risk of bad apples in the system

    Recently an Arab journalist was murdered seemingly on the instructions of the Saudis, it happened in their Embassy. Where are the murderers, safely behind the immunity shield

    It would take international agreement to change things, no chance

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out