What credible justification is there for the UK’s very costly membership of a political entity to obtain tariff free trade.

  • The UK taxpayer pays a very high price for the enablement of some UK businesses to benefit from tariff free trade with the EU…...naturally, if businesses prosper, then so does the economy, as employment prospects are greatly improved, more tax revenue generated...etc etc………….however, why is it deemed necessary for a supranational Parliament; common currency; open borders; ‘ever closer union’; EU citizenship etc….. in order to benefit from tariff free trade???



    Why wasn’t just a Regional Free Trade agreement formed ?……….it would serve the same purpose of expanding multi-country preferential trade for the stimulation of economic growth WITHOUT any supranational political , FoM and legislative primacy nonsense……..and of course, without requiring huge amounts of subsidies from the likes of the UK and Germany.



    Obvious answer - the establishment of all the trappings required for the formation of The United Soviet States of Europe, ( the politburo already exists in the form of the Commission).

  • It all comes down to what is the EU, and what our people believed in the 70s was the then EC, when the UK signed up for it.


    Although I was around in the 70s, I was too young to be concerned about the UK's entry into the then EC, so I don't know what people thought they were signing up for. I expect it was a free trade agreement that you state. But obviously those like Heath had a very different agenda.


    From the EU's point of view, "Europe" was always a political project created in the aftermath of WW2 primarily to merge France and Germany so close together that they could never fight another major war between them again, or anyone else. But did the average Briton know that in the 70s? There was no internet to check things.


    And that was the problem then and now. We want free trade, but for them it was always so much more than that.


    Although I am leaver and voted for Brexit, I am not against the idea of the EU and "ever closer union" based on ideology. I am against it, because in my opinion, its unworkable. Europe is made up of different countries with different languages and cultures and it's not possible to merge them all together in one state. The Romans tried it and looked what happened to them.


    Better we're out of it, deal or no deal.

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  • You may not realise then that Heath actually lied to Parliament about the UK joining the EEC/EU.....when he claimed that it 'wouldn't involve any transfer of sovereignty' - and he ensured that the British public were unaware of the sovereignty issue too.

    http://campaignforanindependen…tain-europe-bruges-group/

  • I don't you if you saw that programme on BBC2 Stevlin around the time of the referendum,, but they went into all this stuff then. Perhaps some in parliament didn't know or couldn't be bothered to find out, but many did including all the hard lefties like Tony Benn.


    Jumping forward a few decades, what I found more shocking from that same programme was how the Maastricht Treaty was dealt with in parliament in Major's government. This was the treaty that renamed the EU to EU and a lot more besides. Basically, the treaty was never scrutinised at all by MPs and there was a rush vote one evening to get it through.


    We'll all been led down a path and I'm not sure we've escaped that path yet, especially with the likes of Gina Miller and her millions teaming up with Blair, Clegg and all the others.

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  • George Orwell got it wrong with 1984. What has really happened is that people have chosen submission to an authoritarian state and attack others who fight against it. The EU is much cleverer than Oceania. It is the older generation who want freedom whilst the young want subjugation. I generalise of course, not all the young are brainwashed as my son keeps reminding me...


    Yes we voted Brexit but already many people are changing their minds. Very clever the EU, and frightening.

  • I'm not so sure people aka us, are changing our minds Hoxton. I haven't.


    Politics wise, we are in a weak situation with the EU now, but I think people who voted whichever way probably still would have done the same now.

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  • George Orwell got it wrong with 1984. What has really happened is that people have chosen submission to an authoritarian state and attack others who fight against it. The EU is much cleverer than Oceania. It is the older generation who want freedom whilst the young want subjugation. I generalise of course, not all the young are brainwashed as my son keeps reminding me...


    Yes we voted Brexit but already many people are changing their minds. Very clever the EU, and frightening.

    That is spot on, Hox, and yes, not all young people are acolytes, but they will be vilified by their peers and sent to Coventry in employment opportunities and advancement. I know this only too well by experience in at least two different kinds of political scene. Those who refuse to swallow the sugar coated pill will be excluded. It's often why they emigrate, which saves them in one sense but weakens our heritage pool, both ethnic and European, in another.

  • Well, I had figured that very little evidence, credible or otherwise could be offered in an attempt to justify the UK's very costly membership of the EU, so the lack of attempts isn't really surprising ........albeit, there really are usually some people who like the socialistic set up of the EU, and would love for the UK to become part of the USSE .

    The EU will of course not be deflected from it's federalstic ambition .......but it may well hasten it post Brexit.

    The future could well be seen to be more favourable for the culmination of the EU's ambition - because, as HH and LW have wisely pointed out......EU citizenship is far more appealing to the younger element society.......but here'd hoping that such a movement doesn't make too much headway in the near future......and certainly not until well after Brexit has taken place......and numerous global trade deals are in place......

  • May is in Brussels right now, I wonder how she's going.


    Unfortunately with the new French toyboy in town, the EU feels revitalised. So while many of us would prefer if the EU were arranged along purely free trade agreement lines similar as to how the EC was, it looks like all the others in the EU want the good ship super state to continue sailing.

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  • I've just looked at the headlines on Skynews and the media is pushing a reverse Brexit agenda again. Plus a nice big hugely embarrassing report of "tearful" British police officers who feel overworked. (The terrorists will no doubt be overjoyed to read this.) All the fault of the ruling party. Sob, sob. etc. They don't have any pride, these repugnant media tarts. They will stick a stiletto into their own mothers.


    And what has happened to the famous British resolve and stiff upper lip? Apparently Captain Merkel has cut it off and has it in her back pocket. And the media is gagging to rejoin her world where she will hug the prodigals, forgive them and tell them what to do. <X

  • The bulk of the media has always been against Brexit.


    By the way, Gina Miller was on BBC's Question time last night....


    I was going to do a summary of it, but I'd end up saying something I probably shouldn't and would need to ban myself from my own forum. So I said nothing. Welcome to 21st century Britain, where free speech died in favour of the elitist, globalist, multi cultural, uber liberal agenda.

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  • Why is Gina Miller on anything regarding the British government? Why would such a lovely woman want to dabble in such things. I'm quite shocked, always having been a great admirer of her and her enormous brain.

    Edited once, last by Little Wing: sanitised post to please the thought fascists. ().

  • Yes, it worked a treat. In more ways than one!


    Let me just say well done to the man, and he seems to be a young one, so whoo-hoo times two to you, mate, who had the guts to heckle the Beauteous One in her telling of the British people where they get off. So superior! Begone, vile British male person thing! And there is always a little media lapdog to do the bidding of these creatures too. Quite nauseating, but nevertheless not unexpected in our time.


    I suppose one can't expect much less in a BBC studio, full of little telly tubbies all clapping and snuggling up to anyone who hates people with balls. That is something we have all come to expect from this once great broadcasting institution (yes, institution). It has now degraded into something I would like to set on fire. (When everyone has gone home, of course.)


    If I were PM I'd do all in my power to curb the living daylights out of the BBC's Labour fraternity and if that didn't work I might simply declare Aunty unfit for purpose and chuck her off the bus to find her way among the harsh realities of advertising and the sort of mongrel scavengers that populate the alleys of independent broadcasting.


    Good luck, dear, you're going to need it if anyone like me comes along!


    As for the lovely lady Gina, whom I greatly admire, - what a princess.

    Edited once, last by Little Wing: perfumed for the sensitive feelings of thought controllers and haters of free speech everywhere. ().

  • May is in Brussels right now, I wonder how she's going.


    Unfortunately with the new French toyboy in town, the EU feels revitalised. So while many of us would prefer if the EU were arranged along purely free trade agreement lines similar as to how the EC was, it looks like all the others in the EU want the good ship super state to continue sailing.

    Well that shouldn't be too surprising H - after all, the majority of EU member states are net recipients of the EU largesse....whereas, the UK is one of the highest contributing members.......THAT, is why the UK will be 'missed'.

  • Pay 'erm nothing until we get out future trade deal, that's how I would approach things. Will that happen? Do pigs fly?

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  • Pay 'erm nothing until we get out future trade deal, that's how I would approach things. Will that happen? Do pigs fly?

    ERM - pay them nothing period!! Why the hell should the UK be expected to subsidise the EU in order to access tariff FT?? Around 60 countries do just that - without having to either subsidise them OR accept any EU governance legislation. If UK 'businesses' that benefit from the tariff free trade wish for the UK to remain, then let them pay the subsidy - albeit, even them the UK should be allowed to retail control of it's borders. Decades ago, 60% of UK's total trade was with the EU......that has now dropped to nearer 40%........'nuff said.

  • The ridiculous EU aren't satisfied with May's proposal of how EU citizens will be 'treated' in the UK, post Brexit......the prats want, and expect the EU citizens resident in the UK after Brexit to be entitled to legal protection as ordained by the European Court........

    What planet are they on??? Do they also expect such legal entitlement to EU citizens resident in other sovereign, non-EU countries???

    Nope - didn't think so!

  • I guess, we're after a special deal and full access to the single market, where as as other non-EU countries don't have full access, espcially to financial services and are subject to tariffs.


    Would be interested to know if M&M (Merkel and Macron) will ever tell Trump that EU citizens living in America need to come under the jurisdiction of the EU court, if America wants a trade deal with the EU. Which, we know what Trump thinks about the EU and other superannuation bodies anyway, but it would be a interesting conversation, none the less.

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  • I guess, we're after a special deal and full access to the single market, where as as other non-EU countries don't have full access, espcially to financial services and are subject to tariffs.


    Would be interested to know if M&M (Merkel and Macron) will ever tell Trump that EU citizens living in America need to come under the jurisdiction of the EU court, if America wants a trade deal with the EU. Which, we know what Trump thinks about the EU and other superannuation bodies anyway, but it would be a interesting conversation, none the less.

    Lol.....yes indeed. One can just imagine Trump's reaction to such a suggestion......but wrt to the UK retaining access to the Single Market, (obviously not including the removal of non-tariff barriers to trade), there are around 60 non-EU countries that have that arrangement- and also without any EU legislative nonsense or subsidy requirements etc, but that would clearly be too good a deal for the UK to be granted.........albeit, they will be mindful of cutting off their nose to spite their face. Methinks that a lot of 'bluffing' will be made by both sides......I wonder whether the best poker player is Davis or Barnier?

  • Apparently, a citizen of the USA has written a parable like treatise in summation of a very recent political period in the UK......


    It goes like this.........


    And there came from the land of Britain a prophet, whose name was Jeremy. And he cried aloud in the wilderness, and said, Behold, I bring you hope .And it came to pass, in the land of Britain, that the High Priestess went unto the people and said, I bring ye tidings of great joy. For on the eighth day of the sixth month there shall be a general election.


    And the people said, Not another one.

    And they waxed wroth against the High Priestess and said, Didst thou not swear, even unto seven times, that thou wouldst not call a snap election?

    And the High Priestess said, I know, I know. But Brexit is come upon us, and I must go into battle against the tribes of France, Germany, and sundry other holiday destinations. And I must put on the armor of a strong majority in the peoples house. Therefore go ye out and vote.

    And there came from the temple pollsters, who said, Surely this woman will flourish. For her enemy is as grass; she cutteth him down. He is as straw in the wind, and he will blow away. And the trumpet of her triumph shall sound in all the land.

    And the High Priestess said, Piece of cake.

    And there came from the same country a prophet, whose name was Jeremy. His beard was as the pelt of beasts, and his raiments were not of the finest. And he cried aloud in the wilderness and said, Behold, I bring you hope.

    And suddenly there was with him a host of young people. And he said unto them, Ye shall study and grow wise in all things, and I shall not ask ye for gold. And the sick shall be made well, and they also will heal freely. And he promised unto them all manner of goodly things.

    And the young people said unto him, How shall these things be rendered, seeing that thou hast no money in thy purse?

    And he spake unto them in a voice of sounding brass and said, Soak the rich. And again, Pull down the mighty from their seats.

    And the young people went absolutely nuts.

    And they harkened unto the word of Jeremy, and believed. For they said unto themselves, Lo, he bringeth unto us the desire of our hearts. He cometh by bicycle, with a helmet upon his head. And he eateth neither flesh nor fowl, according to the Scriptures. For man cannot live by bread alone, but hummus is quite another matter.

    And the High Priestess saw all these things and was sore. And she gathered unto her the chief scribes and the Pharisees and said unto them, What the hell is going on?

    And they said unto her, It is a blip, as if it were a rough place upon the road.

    But they said unto themselves, When the government was upon her shoulders, this woman was mighty. But now that she has gone abroad unto every corner of the land, she stumbleth. For surely it is written that ruling and campaigning are as oil and water, and there shall be no concord betwixt them.

    And the chief scribes wrote upon tablets, saying, Jeremy is false of tongue. He hideth wickedness in his heart. And his sums do not add up.

    And nobody paid any attention.

    And the elders rose up and said to the young people, If ye choose Jeremy, he will bring distress in your toils and wailing upon your streets. Do ye not remember the nineteen-seventies?

    And the young people said, The what?

    And the elders spake again, and said to the young people, Beware, for he gave succor in days of yore to the I.R.A.

    And the young people said, The what?

    And the young people said, Jeremy shall bring peace unto all nations, for he hateth the engines of war that take wing across the heavens. And he showeth respect for all peoples, even unto the transgender community.

    And the elders said, The what?

    And it came to pass that the heathen of this land came among the people, with fire and sword, and slew many among the faithful. And great was the lamentation.

    And the High Priestess waxed exceeding wroth and said to the people, Fear not. For I shall bind your wounds and give ye shelter from the heathen, and shall take up the sword against them.

    And there came again pollsters from the temple, who said, Will the people not vote for her in this hour of need?

    And nobody paid any attention.

    And it came to the vote.

    And the elders went up to vote, as did the young people. For the young people were as a multitude. And in the hours of darkness there was much counting. And the young people watched by night, and the elders went to bed.

    And there came in the morning news that the High Priestess had vanquished the prophet Jeremy. But the triumph of the High Priestess was as the width of a nail. And she was vexed.

    And the elders and the chief scribes and the Pharisees spoke among them
    selves, yea, even in the corners of their houses.

    And there was great rejoicing amidst the multitude of the young. And they took strong wine, and did feast among themselves. And there were twelve baskets left over.

    And of the pollsters there was no sign.

    And the people saw Jeremy and said, Surely this man has won? Doth he not skip in gladness like a young hart upon the hills?

    And there was great murmuring among the elders. And they said unto themselves, Weep not. For the High Priestess doth but prepare the way. Cometh there not one who is greater than she?

    And they said, Behold, for the hour of the redeemer is upon us. And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Prince of Peace. And they cried in one voice, Boris.

    And the young people said, Oh, shit.

    And the people gave tongue, and made supplication unto the Lord, saying, Lord, let our cry come unto thee.

    And the Lord thought the whole thing was absolutely hilarious.

    And then the people said, Lord, what shall we do regarding Brexit? For henceforth the High Priestess shall be as weak as a newborn lamb. How shall we hope for continued access to the single market?

    And the Lord said, The what!

  • There's got to be a part 2 to that!! As Boris was only mentioned right at the end.


    Great post Stevlin, thanks for posting it here.

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  • The EU has laid claim to having introduced several 'benefits' thanks to their largesse...such as clean , or pollution free beaches.....whereas the great improvement in the general quality of cleanliness or otherwise of beaches is the subject of a global programme initiated by the Foundation for Environmental Education.....which is a non-profit NGO based in Copenhagen, and which initiated the Blue Flag award seen around the world nowadays.

  • I must admit I thought the Blue Flag programme was a EU project. Another reason why the EU can be ditched then.

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  • It appears that the Brexit negotiations are not making much headway.....that of of course is hardly surprising, as the EU negotiators are endeavouring to retain the high free trade access with low national control, and the Brexit team is looking for the retention of the high tariff free trade access whilst obtaining a high national control arrangement - never mind subsidies.

    Obviously, neither side will get what it mostly wants......but who will 'budge/compromise' first......unfortunately, my money is on the UK.....despite apparently, seemingly to being led by a reborn Thatcher, I don't believe that May wields her handbag as effectively......even though it is still weighted with many £billions inside....

    I personally believe that we still hold most of the Aces......and I would prefer for the UK to just walk away than to continue to subsidise them .... it is businesses that directly benefit from the payment of the taxpayer subsidy........and many other countries have a FT agreement without allowing any EU control, or having a requirement to subsidise them.....which is ALL that we desire, and we don't/won't have to subsidise the rest of the world in order to access tariff free trade.....so let us start from the concept that we are leaving .......and start on the basis of, "What sort of continued trading arrangement do you wish to have Mr Barnier.......but you ain't going to have any more control, or subsidies .from us.......end of!!"

  • Labour party urges government to drop European Court of Justice ‘red line’

    What is it that Labour still don't seem to get about Brexit???


    According to Open Europe, "Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer yesterday called on the government to drop its “ideological and deeply unhelpful red line” over European Court of Justice (ECJ) jurisdiction post-Brexit. In a letter to the Financial Times, he urged the Prime Minister to reconsider her position".


    No sovereign country should allow any Supranational court to hold sway over it's own legislation. Clearly, post Brexit, the UK must, and will continue to observe international treaties and agreements - but having legislative autonomy is a pre-requisite of a sovereign country.

    Courts /Judges, are supposed to be 'interpreters' of the appropriate legislation, not initiators of legislation, even though their 'decisions' may set precedents.

    We already have the WTO, and international courts which are available for the resolution of legal disputes between countries.....the European Court of Justice should just continue to be that......the EU 'supreme' court for the ultimate settlement of legal disputes /claims between EU states.


    Even our own Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, told the annual Mansion House dinner for judges last night, “It is essential for the UK that we work with the EU to ensure that there is a simple and flexible regime for the mutual recognition of enforcement of judgements for the future.” ..................We can look after our own affairs, and likewise for the EU.......any joint exercise legal disagreements can/should go to the WTO, (if it is a trade issue), and the International Court of Arbitration for commercial issues.

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