Should there be Hillsborough charges?

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  • Former Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces being charged with the manslaughter of 95 people at the Hillsborough disaster.


    Mr Duckenfield was the South Yorkshire Police (SYP) match commander at the FA Cup semi-final when 96 Liverpool fans were fatally injured in a crush.


    He faces the charge of manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 fans. Former SYP Ch Insp Norman Bettison is charged over alleged lies in the aftermath.


    Four others will also be prosecuted. Victims' relatives have been informed.

    Hillsborough Charges

    ====


    Perhaps that former commander was negligent, but is that a criminal matter?


    Should he and his colleagues get charged, as may now be the case, for the Hillsborough disaster?

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  • Not the initial disaster but the attempted coverup of mistakes made should certainly have some charges laid.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

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  • It won't bring anyone back from the dead. Agree that causes should be examined and ways found where such a thing is less likely to be repeated.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • Not the initial disaster but the attempted coverup of mistakes made should certainly have some charges laid.

    I agree and probably should have said that myself in the first post.


    Our knowledge of so many things is obviously far greater than what it was a few decades ago, including on issues like managment of large crowds, but I have no sympathy for the police commanders. Their alleged cover-up was a disgrace, and they deserve everything that's coming to them.

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  • The science of crowd management and crowd behaviour analysis/simulation has come on leaps and bounds since then and the consequences of opening the access points to prevent a perceived crush tragedy would have been known about. At the time it could well have been that the door wardens thought that they were doing the right thing.


    However these days we live in a litigineous society where any tragedy has to have "someone" to blame and subsequently sue for compensation.


    The old saying: If the misdemeanour don't get you, the cover up will" is never more true.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

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  • Yes and thinking back to the Manchester Arena attacks, there will be questions over crowd management there. Although ultimately you cannot blame warden for being scared and running like everyone else, or can you?

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  • Good

    The Liverpool bereaved relatives won't like it of course, their chances of compensation fading rapidly

    My God! What a crass comment! Dozens of people died in horrific and avoidable circumstances and they want justice.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Looks like they won't get any Fidget.


    I hope "lessons have been learned" since then, but we know they never are.:(

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  • There is an issue to do with negligence/duty of care in law regarding the police this concerns whether an officer could properly carry out his/her duties if they thought they could be sued or court action will follow. For example; will they want a H&S assessment before they do anything?

    Of course if Duckenfield shot people there is a clear crime. As the man in charge, he chose to make decisions and made the wrong decisions which resulted in many deaths. Was there intent? I doubt it. Was there negligence? yes. Was he reckless? It seems so. Was there contributory negligence?

    I do know, from experience, no newspaper or media reporter accurately transfers the court proceedings. So we respond to what is fed to us.

    By his actions should Duckenfield have reasonably foreseen what happened?

    This was a terrible incident. Should he be pursued akin to the Parachute Regiment personnel who killed innocent Irish people?

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • There is an issue to do with negligence/duty of care in law regarding the police this concerns whether an officer could properly carry out his/her duties if they thought they could be sued or court action will follow. For example; will they want a H&S assessment before they do anything?

    Of course if Duckenfield shot people there is a clear crime. As the man in charge, he chose to make decisions and made the wrong decisions which resulted in many deaths. Was there intent? I doubt it. Was there negligence? yes. Was he reckless? It seems so. Was there contributory negligence?

    I do know, from experience, no newspaper or media reporter accurately transfers the court proceedings. So we respond to what is fed to us.

    By his actions should Duckenfield have reasonably foreseen what happened?

    This was a terrible incident. Should he be pursued akin to the Parachute Regiment personnel who killed innocent Irish people?

    "Hillsborough police chief David Duckenfield cleared of manslaughter"


    A jury heard all the facts and found him NOT GUILTY

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • My God! What a crass comment! Dozens of people died in horrific and avoidable circumstances and they want justice.

    Do the relatives of the victims of the horrific train crashes and other tragedies of recent years still scream for "justice"

    Better to accept an accident and move on, anything else just makes for bitterness

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • A sensible jury it seems. They did not feel it right that Duckenfield be singled out as the cause of the deaths or his gross negligence charge was fair and just. I think this is the right decision.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • With Hillsborough would it fair to say that football stadiums cater for the mass of attending football fans as if they're like cattle and, to a large extent, the football fans themselves behave like cattle. On particularly crowded days this is bound to get dangerous. Against that background the police have always had the mentality and behaviour regulators rather than facilitators. As for prevention, that's almost an alien concept to the police. That's just the way the police work. As for health & safety inspectors, they're too busy forbidding an infinite number of inconsequential things, eg the use by emptied cardboard containers that can replace plastic bags for supermarket customers to carry their shopping to their car). Meanwhile at Hillsborough ........




    .

  • The majority of people want to know why accidents and deaths occur, and if they can be avoided. Many are caused by human failure, others by equipment failure, and an investigation is necessary to try and ensure that nobody else loses their life doing normal everyday things.


    As for the police, respect for them is going the same way as respect for our politicians.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • When we live in a time with police knocking on doors and warning people -"you have NOT committed a crime but I am warning you your language on a social network forum is no acceptable under Hate Speech Law" ..... George Orwell would be leapfrogging. "you have not committee a crime"!!!!!!! When these officers are challenged they speak as if blessed with an iQ below 30. They are absolutely moronic. To think such people actually charge people and end up in a court room is beyond belief.

    There are non so fickle as Jury's, in my experience, but overall there is no better system. However, the guy who killed Mr Tomlinson - the cop who pushed him to the ground - was found Not guilty and that was because the charge /indictment was too high on the bar of offences and could never realistically end up as a guilty find. The CPS fuffed up. Thank god that thug cop was sacked.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • The majority of people want to know why accidents and deaths occur, and if they can be avoided. Many are caused by human failure, others by equipment failure, and an investigation is necessary to try and ensure that nobody else loses their life doing normal everyday things.


    As for the police, respect for them is going the same way as respect for our politicians.

    That's a nice summation of the ideal to which I'm sure all moral and intelligent people would subscribe


    My previous despairing comment (#15) was about the present reality. If we censor the reasons why these sort of things happen (or get shouted down or admonished when we try to bring those reasons into the open), how on earth can we prevent it happening again. Unravelling cause & effect can be hellishly difficult at the best of times. But when weighed down by protocol, political correctness, media distortion-sensationalism, crocodile tears, witchhunts, corruption and vested interests, it becomes a miracle how society and civilisation can make any advance. Society's so-called progress or advancement is letting quantity overtake quality and I believe that is how the (fanciful?) scenarios of dystopia in films or books such as "Blade Runner, Brave New World, One, Fahrenheit 451, Robocop (to name just a few) , become a seriously disturbing prediction of this world is heading.


    Gawd, I do sound pompous! Sorry. Great way to start the day!


    NB: while typing this before pressing the reply button I see that mali99 has beaten me to the draw (#17) with similar but more specific sentiments !!

  • Prior to the Hillsborough incident fans ran onto the pitch creating risk of and real incidents of injury to players/referees and other fans this resulted in fences being erected to stop fans rushing the pitch. It could be said that the behaviour of the fans rushing the pitch committing offences etc is a major contributory factor which lead to the deaths at Hillsborough. When the fences were erected this was in the days of complete thuggery and violence and disorder. They did not worry about calling "banana" at black players as a major cause of concern.

    Accidents are not foreseen. Negligence hangs on the prime factor of "foreseen" "reasonable to foresee". It is interesting when considering "unlawfully killed" with "Criminal offence on manslaughter" with negligence being the area of blame/cause.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • So why does someone have to be blamed. Locking someone up for mistake isn't going to bring back the 96 poor soles who lost their lives. The disaster was a combination of events and bad decisions.

    1. The Liverpool supporters should have been put at the other end

    2. The gates should not have been opened to allow supporters in without tickets. However, the disruption being caused outside the ground justifies the decision.

    3. Supporters with tickets for other pens decided they would go in the central pens. Police have been blamed for this, but surely the supporters were also to blame.

    4. Liverpool supporters turning up in their thousands without tickets.

    I fully appreciate there was a police cover up, and I have no issue with any individual being tried for perverting the course of justice.

    What sickens me is the outright defence of the supporters. People conveniently forget the Heysel disaster, where 39 people lost their lives as a result of Liverpool supporters. At the time Liverpool supporters were a scourge in the football world. I had a friend who was a police officer on duty at Wembley for the final. Again, thousands of supporters turned up without tickets attempting to jump over turnstiles and knock down gates. They learned nothing. I went to the Champions League final in June, supporting Spurs. I travelled up from Murcia on the train, and spent 3 hours talking to Liverpool supporters. Most didn't have tickets, and several of them told me they were going to get into the stadium by what ever means it took. Again, they have learned nothing.

    Ultimately David Duckenfield has had his life ruined by family members of the deceased who just want to have somebody blamed. This poor man was doing his job to the best of his ability, and didn't want anyone to be hurt, let alone killed. Whether his decisions were right wrong is almost irrelevant, he had to flip a coin, and it appears it may have landed the wrong way up. If he had locked the supporters outside, and they rioted, I am sure he would have been punished. Rock and hard place comes to mind.

    As sad as Hillsborough was there have been far worse disasters before and after. I think it's time to move on now


    [HY Mod edit] Post moved here. Duplicate thread deleted.

    Don't make me angry

  • Things happen wherever crowds are involved and when this involves a tragedy lessons are always learned. With regard to football there was another incident involving a fire resulting in wooden stands being replaced. Then there has been hooliganism resulting in more seating

    We do learn from these, I don't think there have been any similar incidents since

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • Bibbles said >> "Ultimately David Duckenfield has had his life ruined by family members of the deceased who just want to have somebody blamed. This poor man was doing his job to the best of his ability, and didn't want anyone to be hurt, let alone killed."

    I totally agree with you. I know it is not logical but imagine if he had diplomatic immunity.

    I am but mad north north west.. But when the wind is southerly I know a Hawke from a Handsaw.

    People don't believe lies because they have to - they believe lies because they want to.

  • Bibbles said >> "Ultimately David Duckenfield has had his life ruined by family members of the deceased who just want to have somebody blamed. This poor man was doing his job to the best of his ability, and didn't want anyone to be hurt, let alone killed."

    I totally agree with you. I know it is not logical but imagine if he had diplomatic immunity.

    This was his third trial

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I appreciate your tough analysis. It entirely reinforces Bob Dylan's line "You don't need a weatherman to know which the way the wind blows".


    This is the trouble with inquiries - forever analysing to distraction and destruction; society's displacement activity when the only alternative is having to do something about it. When are we going to put in to prison or hang any politician or inquiry committee member who says "there have been lessons to be learnt"


    I'm also pleased you have stuck your neck out and pointed a questioning finger at Liverpudlians. The last person I remember doing that was Boris Johnson, where David (platitude-beats-attitude) Cameron rapped Boris's knuckles and forced him to apologise. But Boris's original criticism was right on the money.


    When my company was doing research discussion groups and hall tests all over Britain, the one city we regarded as a no-go area was Liverpool. It's not they were dangerously violet, just unreliable and full of bile. I know stereotyping is frowned upon - and undoubtedly there will always be exceptions - but research companies talking to one another about their experiences and reasons for singling out Liverpool went way beyond any likelihood of unfair stereotyping

  • I was a retailer for most of my working life. The company I had worked for closed down two shops in Liverpool, because the shoplifting was so rife they simply couldn't make it pay.


    Back in the mid nineties I lived in Bournemouth for a while. The locals in Bournemouth are quite cold, and befriending people was quite difficult. Believe it or not their was a large scouse community in the area. The Scousers were far more friendly, however, I wouldn't even leave a pint on the table went I went to the toilet. Everyone I knew was up to some sort of illegal activity. They are strange people, they would beat you up and steal your wallet, then hold a whip round to help you out.

    Don't make me angry

  • I was a retailer for most of my working life. The company I had worked for closed down two shops in Liverpool, because the shoplifting was so rife they simply couldn't make it pay.


    Back in the mid nineties I lived in Bournemouth for a while. The locals in Bournemouth are quite cold, and befriending people was quite difficult. Believe it or not their was a large scouse community in the area. The Scousers were far more friendly, however, I wouldn't even leave a pint on the table went I went to the toilet. Everyone I knew was up to some sort of illegal activity. They are strange people, they would beat you up and steal your wallet, then hold a whip round to help you out.

    That's funny, fascinating and informative. Maybe the scouse friendliness you sometimes found was not so much a strange contradiction but confirmation of their instability or insincerity

  • That's funny, fascinating and informative. Maybe the scouse friendliness you sometimes found was not so much a strange contradiction but confirmation of their instability or insincerity

    I wonder if the "scouse friendliness" was to size you up to see what they could get out of you

    To me they are always "Want, want, want" "Gimme, gimme, gimme"

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I wonder if the "scouse friendliness" was to size you up to see what they could get out of you

    To me they are always "Want, want, want" "Gimme, gimme, gimme"

    Yeah, I think that's about it to be honest

    Don't make me angry

  • Perhaps you can all post in LW's Where to go thread, about the best/friendly places to live in the country.


    I second that remark about Bournemouth, by the way, but are there any areas in the South that aren't frosty?

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  • My home town is welcoming enough. But I suppose it depends on how much of a stranger you are.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

    If my post is in this colour  it is moderation. Take note.