Will Catalonia become independent? Will it lead to civil war? Vote.

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    What will happen after the Catalan vote for independence? 4

    1. Catalonia will declare independence and it will lead to war with Spain. (1) 25%
    2. Catalonia will declare independence, but a peaceful resolution with Spain will occur. (2) 50%
    3. Catalonia will not declare independence. (0) 0%
    4. Don't know what will happen. (1) 25%
    5. Where's Catalonia? (0) 0%

    Please vote in the poll. You may choose one option only.

    The situation in Catalonia is looking fragile, before getting to the question at hand, here is a series of links detailing some of the main events over the last week:

    2nd October 2017

    Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.

    He said the door was open to a unilateral declaration of independence after Catalan officials said voters had backed secession with a 42.3% turnout.

    6th October 2017

    The Spanish government's representative in Catalonia has apologised to those injured during police efforts to stop Sunday's independence referendum.

    7th October 2017

    Pro-unity rallies are underway in the Spanish capital after Sunday's disputed referendum for Catalan independence.

    Tens of thousands have protested in Madrid, while other demonstrations have been held in the Catalan city of Barcelona urging political dialogue.

    7th October 2017

    Tensions are running high in Spain in anticipation of a possible declaration of independence by the Catalan government. On 1 October, 43% of Catalans voted in a referendum, which the Spanish government declared illegal then tried to suppress by force.

    The final results from the outlawed poll show 90% of the 2.3m people who voted backed independence.

    After being bombarded with essentially a one sided view from the media that the Spanish are bad and the Catalonians are the good guys, is that too a simplistic take on things? The vote only had a 43% turnout, so when the Catalonian government talks about 90% of their people voted for independence, that's 90% out of the 43%.

    Do the Spanish government have a legitimate point here about the illegality of this vote? If Catalonians wanted independence, they could've voted in pro-independent politicians in the Spanish elections, but independence politicians have never garnered a majority vote in the Spanish elections.

    The SNP called for a independence vote and it was given to them and they lost. It was all legal and I think even the SNP accept now that the question of Scottish independence has been put back into the cupboard for a generation. But the way this vote has happened in Catalonia seems to have stirred a hornets nest with unforeseen consequences. What do you think?

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    Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont and other regional leaders have signed a declaration of independence from Spain.

    However, they say secession will be suspended to allow talks with the government in Madrid.

    Saw this on tv. He said he intends to take Catalonia independent soon, but didn't declare independence, yet signed a declaration of independence. Bizarre.

    Lets see what the Spanish government do.

  • All power structures panic when people want independence from them. Most people are like sheep and do what their power structure leaders tell them to do, whether this is a political or religious matter, or in some cases, both.

    Independence is the dirty word of modern times as imperialist, leading to global, structures are the way to go to get the most out of people for the smallest number of powerful leaders and their little coteries of flunkies. A flunky will do anything to keep its expense account, a bishop would do anything a while ago to keep his palms well greased with goose fat. Nothing has changed, just new clothes on old props.

    In time, there will be a lot more of these calls for independence, or for more direct control, and when this occurs through direct democracy, those claiming they are democratic will not tolerate this truancy and come down like a ton of bricks on those who said the dirty "I" word.

    Today, it's all about how much you can squeeze out of everyone by means of taxation and by means of trade deals, production deals, banking grants and various others means to shave as much off the individual's pay and spending habits as possible and to stuff this into as few coffers as possible, which is why sometimes these mega-rich social engineers fight among themselves. That is inevitable once they have the mobs agog at the wonder of their systems. They need then to eliminate each other so there can be only one. They are very fond of the oneness of one, and have been for a number of centuries, as anyone with half a brain should have worked out by now.

    What is amazing today is this fervent belief a younger generation has in its torch bearing ideology that they believe echoes the hippy generation. They couldn't be more wrong. The so-called hippy generation was against the atrocities committed by the establishment on every level and not interested in upholding this ship of corruption and fascist control through religion, rank pulling and graft.

    When I look at these idiots fighting in the streets against those who rebel against the establishment, I despair at the stupidity of acolytes. This lot are scrapping and trolling and venerating for the establishment that they adore and will serve if it kills them. They have absolutely no idea that they are the antithesis of that so-called hippy generation. The hippies fought for liberty, this lot are fighting for oppression by the establishment, they are fighting for imperialism and globalisation every time they protest against independence movements and they are thicker than two short planks when it comes to what they should be thinking about.

    They are a disappointment like no other when it comes to what is being concealed behind their idiotic ranting. They are mere technology addicted sycophants and any foolish ideas they may entertain about windmills and living in converted tea chests and buying the world a coke will end in the collapse of western civilization. This is inevitable if a generation with such a skewed perspective on reality is allowed to put its hysteria and devotion into practise.

    The elements in the world who are waiting to catch this infant as soon as it is born are merely waiting to cut off its head.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

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    Spain's prime minister has put Catalonia on notice that it could impose direct rule on the region.

    Mariano Rajoy said his government had asked the regional government to clarify whether or not it had declared independence.

    Well, the Spanish PM didn't know whether the Catalan president declared independence or not and nether did I. I watched the expected declaration last night and was as confused as everyone else. Clearly, Madrid is not going to roll over and could impose direct rule on the region.

    What can resolve this situation and potentially dangerously standoff between the two sides?

    If I were the Spanish Pm, I'd allow an official referendum on Catalan independence and get the matter resolved. Madrid has reduced to do this.

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    The leader of Spain's Catalonia region has attended a commemoration less than 24 hours before a Spanish deadline to give his final say on independence.

    Spain has given him until 10:00 (08:00 GMT) on Monday to clarify whether he has or has not declared independence.

    I guess we'll find out on Monday how this is going to play out. Not well, I think.

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    The Spanish government has said that the head of the Catalonia region has failed to clarify whether he declared independence last week.

    In a letter to Madrid on Monday, Carles Puigdemont instead called for negotiation over the next two months.

    Well, it seems nothing has happened today and this will rumble on for some time.

  • Puigdemont is asking the Spanish government to consider the people's vote. The Spanish government has no intention of doing so and hopes to crush Catalonia back into the arms of the Mother Ship.

    When negotiations fail (because the bigwigs don't do negotiation, even if they make a huge pretense at it) anything could happen.

    If the Catalonians decide they are angry enough for a fight, the Spanish government will grasp the opportunity it seeks and crush them. First they will denounce the rebel leader and dish dirt on him to confuse the undecided and fuel the tanks of the happiness fairies. The followers may waver, as they often do, and then the serpent will strike. It won't kill the spirit of Catalonia, but it will throw a lot of cold water on the independence cause and the guzzlers and boozers in the Mother Ship can live another day on their floating paradise of imperial power.

    Crack open the champers, Mrs Merkel! Your Spanish pooches will give you what you want, but you should think about this - you won't always get what you want. Enjoy it while it gasps its last. Then run.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

    • Staff Notice

    Puigdemont is asking the Spanish government to consider the people's vote. The Spanish government has no intention of doing so and hopes to crush Catalonia back into the arms of the Mother Ship.

    Yep. Looks like it's going that way:

    A Spanish judge has jailed two key members of the Catalan independence movement.

    Jordi Sánchez and Jordi Cuixart, who lead prominent separatist groups, are being held without bail while they are under investigation for sedition.

    As one of the Spanish newspapers in that link says, "the National Court turned over the table yesterday."

    To arrest them was bad enough, but to hold in prison without trial is disgusting.

    The Spanish government has given Puigdemont until Thursday to say whether he has declared independence or not. Before the champers get cracked open, I fear it will be a lot of heads first that get split into pieces.

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    Spain is to start suspending Catalonia's autonomy from Saturday, as the region's leader threatens to declare independence.

    The government said ministers would meet to activate Article 155 of the constitution, allowing it to take over running of the region.

    The Thursday deadline has come, Puigdemont has not clarified what Madrid wanted, so the Spanish government has announced that it's opposing direct rule over Catalonia, although this won't actually start to be implemented until next week.

    A lot of excitable people on the streets and that excitement can change mood very quickly.

  • Spanish fascism raises its ugly head. Do you suppose the EU will notice?

    This was the country that saw the worst of the Inquisition. They are no strangers to violent oppression and any Catalonian standing up to them now has a set of really big ones and is almost certainly going to the stake.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

    • Staff Notice

    It all kicked off, as far as I'm concerned, was when the Spanish police were battering elderly people's heads with batons when they were voting for independence and all on live tv.

    Today, live pictures were showing rows of Spanish federal police squaring up against Catalan police. Both groups are armed.

    I would like to know is how many people in Catalonia want independence. So far we've only got one side's figures on this. If there were a proper vote agreed with Madrid, then we would have a real idea how strong the independence movement really is.

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    The Spanish prime minister has outlined plans to remove Catalonia's leaders and take control of the separatist region.

    Speaking after an emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday, Mariano Rajoy stopped short of dissolving the region's parliament but put forward plans for elections in the region.

    The measures must now be approved by Spain's Senate in the next few days.

    Well, the Spanish government is not backing down here.

    I suppose the crunch will come when Madrid orders the local Catalan police to abide by their orders and not the Catalan leaders' orders. We've already seen the Spanish federal police face off against the regional Catalan police.

    The Spanish government could still take this to mediation before the first shots are fired.

    • Staff Notice

    The Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, says the region will not accept Madrid's plan for direct rule.

    He described it as the worst attack on Catalonia's institutions since General Franco's 1939-1975 dictatorship, under which regional autonomy was dissolved

    Not really much news here, as its no surprise that the Catalan president rejects the plan for direct rule from Madrid.

    I just want to keep this thread up to date, as its important to log these developments as this could become a very significant story in European history, or whittle away quietly.

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    Catalan authorities will not follow orders from the Spanish government if Madrid moves to reassert control over the region, a senior official says.

    Foreign affairs spokesman Raul Romeva told the BBC the central government was acting against the will of Catalans.

    Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has announced plans to sack the region's government and curtail some of the freedoms of its parliament.

    The Catalan parliament will meet on Thursday to decide on its response.

    The tension is gradually ratcheting up.

    As this story develops, the more I'm thankful, despite my initial dislike of it, that the Scots did have a free and independent (of the English) vote on independence. Rather that, than what is now and about to happen in Spain.

    Please vote in the poll, folks.

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    Now it gets interesting, they went nuclear ahead of the main government invoking article 155.

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    Missed it. Damn. I was doing a bit of gardening as the weather is so nice. Things may now "heat" up over there.

    Members: Please vote in the poll, if you haven't already done so, so especially now that this story has developed.

    • Staff Notice

    What we don't know is how many people in Catalonia favour independence.

    Having a illegal referendum where more than half of Catalonia's population didn't turn up to vote (probably a good idea, considering the violence inflicted upon voters by the Spanish federal police) does not tell us how many of Catalonia's people want to break off from Spain.

  • Judging by the jubilant images of Catalonians on the news today, it looks like the Spanish leader may have erred bigtime in treating the Catalonians like sheep. They seem ready and willing to call him out. They're not sheep, they're wolves! What an unpleasant surprise for those accustomed to giving orders and having their boots licked by big tent flunkies.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

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