The Great Debate on Tax Avoidance

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  • A huge new leak of financial documents has revealed how the powerful and ultra-wealthy, including the Queen's private estate, secretly invest vast amounts of cash in offshore tax havens.

    Donald Trump's commerce secretary is shown to have a stake in a firm dealing with Russians sanctioned by the US.

    The leak, dubbed the Paradise Papers, contains 13.4m documents, mostly from one leading firm in offshore finance

    There must be something in the water at the moment, firstly the avalanche of sex deviants and perverts are having a light shone on them and now another group of creeps, the ultra rich who shelter their dosh in tax havens while the rest of us peasants have to pay tax, are also now finally coming under scrutiny.

    The whole system is geared up to screw us, literally. The legal system was created by the rich to protect the interests of the wealthy landowners and hundreds of years later, nothing has changed.

    The UK has clear laws about paying tax, yet the very rich either pay very little tax or none at all.

    This is the second major batch of leaks after the Panama Papers and I'm sure there are many more to come, but as anyone in the know is aware, the largest tax haven isn't in the Cayman Islands or the Isle of Man, but here in Blighty, it's London.

    Roll on more leaks!:)

  • Not sure the Queen one is a big deal. We support her through taxation anyway, seems reasonable to make a few extra quid offshore instead of effectively paying herself.

    No one cares anyway right? If they did care about tax then firms like Amazon would be struggling instead of thriving. Or rather home grown legitimate competitors would not have failed whilst Amazon thrived.

  • Will anyone stop using Amazon because of their tax "planning" measures? No, don't think so., but this is a another chip-chip into a secret world where those with power and money (like the sex predators) do as they wish, or did.

    As regards the Queen, it depends if anything else comes out. The new Duke of Westminster who owns most of Belgravia, never paid any inheritance tax when he took over the reins from his late father, yet all the rest of us peasants have to abide by tax law.

  • If they don't then they are saying it's ok (I stopped using them by the way but the democratic voice of the UK is an overwhelming yes to tax fiddling so might review that one day). Personally I think what they do is worse.

    Did no one know rich people put money in offshore funds before this came out then? Surely it's the details that will be of interest i.e. where the money was invested.

  • It's interesting, in a way, this this second batch of leaked documents about tax havens has come out in the middle of the stories of sex scandals and men's behaviour.

    To answer your question, Hoxton, i think people did know about it before, but like some men's sexual behaviour to otehrs, we're in a new age and I think, in time, the public may tire of rich people and companies fiddling the tax system while they have to do the 9-5 and pay all their taxes.

    As I've said before when the stories about Amazon's treatment of its staff and tax affairs came out, I do use Amazon. I stopped using them because of their treatment of staff and used other companies and found Amazon was head and shoulders above the rest. By using Amazon does not mean I agree with their tax planning measures or poor treatment of their staff, but I will continue using them for now.

    As you say, where the money is invested is important and why this story will not do the queen any favours due to the link with Brighthouse.

  • Before anyone criticises others for finding ways to avoid paying tax or paying less tax, they have to ask themselves, and be honest about it, if they could do the same would they? ;)

  • Before anyone criticises others for finding ways to avoid paying tax or paying less tax, they have to ask themselves, and be honest about it, if they could do the same would they? ;)

    Exactly. My criticism of Amazon is not based on principle, if small British firms could get away with not paying much too there wouldn't be a problem.

  • It's interesting, in a way, this this second batch of leaked documents about tax havens has come out in the middle of the stories of sex scandals and men's behaviour.

    To answer your question, Hoxton, i think people did know about it before, but like some men's sexual behaviour to otehrs, we're in a new age and I think, in time, the public may tire of rich people and companies fiddling the tax system while they have to the 9-5 and pay all their taxes.

    As I've said before when the stories about Amazon's treatment of its staff and tax affairs came out, I do use Amazon. I stopped using them because of their treatment of staff and used other companies and found Amazon was head and shoulders above the rest. By using Amazon does not mean I agree with their tax planning measures or poor treatment of their staff, but I will continue using them for now.

    As you say, where the money is invested is important and why this story will not do the queen any favours due to the link with Brighthouse.

    Its a shame that you know Amazon is shit and you know a salesdrop would make a difference, but you choose to continue to support them. I used to use them for years, stopped about 10 years ago when it all came out and haven't suffered at all for it... In fact I found things were often cheaper elsewhere.

  • As a one man band company I always look to minimise my exposure to taxes and other expenses from El Gov as far as is legal. Not because I make a lot of money, far from it, but I like to keep as much of what I earn as possible.

    What I do object to is those, who are rich beyond the dreams of avarice, not even paying the same effective tax rate as the rest of the population but still taking advantage of the services this country provides.

  • Before anyone criticises others for finding ways to avoid paying tax or paying less tax, they have to ask themselves, and be honest about it, if they could do the same would they? ;)

    I use ISAs, but if I was a billionaire, I'd hope I would want to pay the same amount of tax as the person on £20K.

    Exactly. My criticism of Amazon is not based on principle, if small British firms could get away with not paying much too there wouldn't be a problem.

    The many, many laws are written so that you need to employ very good accountants to get around those laws. Tiny business' cannot afford expensive accountants, they also can't pretend that out of all the countries in Europe, they get most of their revenue from Luxembourg or Southern Ireland, unlike the Starbucks etc

    As a one man band company I always look to minimise my exposure to taxes and other expenses from El Gov as far as is legal. Not because I make a lot of money, far from it, but I like to keep as much of what I earn as possible.


    What I do object to is those, who are rich beyond the dreams of avarice, not even paying the same effective tax rate as the rest of the population but still taking advantage of the services this country provides.

    This is exactly the problem.

    But many multinational companies saying that their profits are gleamed from revenues in Luxembourg, they are evading tax, not a simple tax efficient measure that you might employ, but a massive tax avoidance one. There is no level playing field.

  • Overseas accounts are not in themselves tax havens. The illegality lies with the account holder who decides not to declare any taxable earnings to the tax authorities in his country of residence

    The presumption of tax evasion for anyone who has opened an account abroad in a country in which they do not reside even some of the time place is based on wilful ignorance stemming from envy or resentment towards the moneyed classes.

    It is easier and cheaper for a UK citizen to invest in shares in American companies from an account in the Caribbean. If you do so from a bank account opened in the US you will hounded and bureaucratisized to death by the US tax authorities and risk double taxation (US + UK). If you try and do so from the UK you end up paying fees to two brokers and you can still get hounded by the US tax authorities.

    It isn't just a matter of privacy and trustees to keep tax officialdom from making a nuisance of themselves. For UK citizens with assets or financial dealings abroad there are tax avoidance advantages in having an overseas account in Belize, the Caribbean, Bermuda. Because of class-based wilful ignorance, the mass of British citizens do not wish to entertain the distinction between tax evasion (illegal) and tax avoidance (legal). Not do they wish to pay heed to Lord Denning's decision that tax avoidance is legal and that it is tax evasion which is illegal.

    When various UK governments, invariably Labour, choose to ingratiate themselves to the mob mass voter by increasing tax to the rich, any wealthy person who has financial circumstances that enable him to minimise his tax bill by legal tax avoidance methods would be a chump not to do so. No doubt the mob mass voter's counter-view is that he should relinquish his Knighthood or even his freedom.


    I

  • as anyone in the know is aware, the largest tax haven isn't in the Cayman Islands or the Isle of Man, but here in Blighty, it's London.

    And if its a no-deal hard Brexit, what's the betting Britain will seek to survive by becoming an even lower tax haven to bring in the moneyi

    And why not?

  • Today on the front page of the Times you can predict with 100% certainty the consequence of every hypocritical ignorant sanctimonious bandwagoning vote-seeking politician (which is almost all of them) demanding that this country must nail down the "tax avoiders" in "tax havens" that are used by "dodgy" people and companies, depleting this country's wealth and reducing the standard of living of its "honest hard working citizens".

    The consequence is already evident from the Irish Government's announced crackdown on tax avoiders, where Apple (and others) responded by moving its operation to another off-shore territory. If the Irish government's crackdown develops into substance rather than just chest puffing, other companies will surely follow Apple's decision and future investment, from multi-national companies in countries which offer a favourable tax climate, will evaporate. There will always be other receptive countries delighted to receive 5-10% of an enormous tax loaf rather than none. The irony and hypocrisy will be that one those receptive countries is already Britain, which will become increasingly accommodating if and when it leaves the EU with a bad deal or none at all. That said, if Labour gets in, most multi-nationals or foreign people who want to hold onto a reasonable proportion of their wealth will think twice about placing their hand and wallet into the mouth of a snake).

    "Tax haven" is a misnomer. It is simply a country which offers a lower, less penalising, less grasping tax regime to foreign people or companies than that of some other countries. It is usually a country that has - or had - or might soon have - a low standard of living with insufficient wealth creation within its own borders. Britain is in danger of becoming such a country.

    Tax avoidance is not tax evasion. In the last few years the British tax authorities have managed to reduce tax evasion to an insignificant deficit and recovered a massive amount of the unpaid tax owing. Tax avoidance is entirely legal and arguably the prerogative of citizens everywhere, including those in this country. Furthermore, tax avoidance is being bandied around by witless or rabble-rousing media and politicians as the avoidance of paying any tax, whereas the truth of the matter is that it is the avoidance of paying a higher percentage of tax than one is legally obligated to pay under that country's idiotically-complicated tax rules. Or as my accountant once said: "where there's a law there's a flaw".

    I suspect - or at least hope - that most members of Forum Box already know all this. if so, contrast that with what we hear from politicians, media and the majority of the British public. Why is this country like that?

  • Its a shame that you know Amazon is shit and you know a salesdrop would make a difference, but you choose to continue to support them. I used to use them for years, stopped about 10 years ago when it all came out and haven't suffered at all for it... In fact I found things were often cheaper elsewhere.

    I don't have a problem with Amazon I use them quite a lot I have a Prime membership mostly for the access to the videos etc and see the next day delivery they offer on a large amount of items as a bonus having that doesn't stop me from shopping around and buying from elsewhere if an item I want is cheaper.

  • He's basically accusing me of hypocrisy, Ron, which I suppose it is.

    I do use Amazon in the full knowledge of their tax practices and treatment of staff. I'm not sure I agree with him that by me dropping my business with them would make a difference to their policies. I don't buy that much from them and like you, have prime membership so the free next day and frequently same day delivery is excellent.

  • Tax avoidance is not tax evasion. In the last few years the British tax authorities have managed to reduce tax evasion to an insignificant deficit and recovered a massive amount of the unpaid tax owing. Tax avoidance is entirely legal and arguably the prerogative of citizens everywhere, including those in this country. Furthermore, tax avoidance is being bandied around by witless or rabble-rousing media and politicians as the avoidance of paying any tax, whereas the truth of the matter is that it is the avoidance of paying a higher percentage of tax than one is legally obligated to pay under that country's idiotically-complicated tax rules. Or as my accountant once said: "where there's a law there's a flaw".

    The bosses of Apple, Starbucks and others have said that they have a legal duty to their shareholders to reduce taxes and the burden upon the companies' finances. In the UK, we have the Companies Act that places that same onus on the directors of companies.

  • He's basically accusing me of hypocrisy, Ron, which I suppose it is.

    I do use Amazon in the full knowledge of their tax practices and treatment of staff. I'm not sure I agree with him that by me dropping my business with them would make a difference to their policies. I don't but that much from them and like you, have prime membership so the free next day and frequently same day delivery is excellent.

    I'm not at all bothered by their tax practices and as for how they treat their staff if the staff aren't that happy they could always work else where.

  • Today on the front page of the Times you can predict with 100% certainty the consequence of every hypocritical ignorant sanctimonious bandwagoning vote-seeking politician (which is almost all of them) demanding that this country must nail down the "tax avoiders" in "tax havens" that are used by "dodgy" people and companies, depleting this country's wealth and reducing the standard of living of its "honest hard working citizens".


    The consequence is already evident from the Irish Government's announced crackdown on tax avoiders, where Apple (and others) responded by moving its operation to another off-shore territory. If the Irish government's crackdown develops into substance rather than just chest puffing, other companies will surely follow Apple's decision and future investment, from multi-national companies in countries which offer a favourable tax climate, will evaporate. There will always be other receptive countries delighted to receive 5-10% of an enormous tax loaf rather than none. The irony and hypocrisy will be that one those receptive countries is already Britain, which will become increasingly accommodating if and when it leaves the EU with a bad deal or none at all. That said, if Labour gets in, most multi-nationals or foreign people who want to hold onto a reasonable proportion of their wealth will think twice about placing their hand and wallet into the mouth of a snake).

    George Osborne, our once "great" former chancellor, who gleams his wealth from his family's clothing business and Irish estates, uses very aggressive "tax planning" measures as does the former Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Dame Margaret Hodge. Hodge was the one who publicly berated the heads of Starbucks and Amazon on live tv while using aggressive tax planning techniques herself. Her real name is Oppenheimer...

    If the tax havens stop, then Apple and others won't have any places to hide from the tax man any more.

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