"Airstrikes show we stand up for principle and civilised values" Boris Johnson

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  • https://www.telegraph.co.uk/op…ria-show-stand-principal/


    Family of OAP who stabbed burglar to death barred from speaking to him

    Richard Osborn-Brooks' calls are being monitored in fears of a revenge attack over his slaying of Henry Vincent.


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/…-stabbed-burglar-12365211


    Deaths of UK homeless people more than double in five years


    https://www.theguardian.com/so…than-double-in-five-years


    NHS delays put thousands of bowel cancer patients at risk


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne…wel-cancer-patients-risk/


    London murder rate overtakes New York's


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43610936


    Quite Boris, quite. :rolleyes:

  • Just another gravy train riding trough feeder who has no inkling of what living in the real world is like.

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • I really cannot blame the government for most of these topics except the first one , too many people using NHS as a cure all , many homeless have help but will not take it, black kids killing each other through ignorance in London is not anyone's fault but their own , are white kids doing it ?

  • I really cannot blame the government for most of these topics except the first one , too many people using NHS as a cure all , many homeless have help but will not take it, black kids killing each other through ignorance in London is not anyone's fault but their own , are white kids doing it ?

    You seem to think that people prefer sleeping in cold streets to having a home for themselves and their families. Perhaps you can get a doctor's appointment within 3 weeks and aren't one of those waiting months for treatment. And the point is that it doesn't matter who's " doing it", it's going on and no one seems to be interested in doing anything about it. Still, you can console yourself with the thought that if ever you need urgent medical treatment you will be the only really genuine one in the queue, if ever you get stabbed it will the robber's ignorance which is to blame and not the lack of police on the streets and if ever you have the misfortune to lose your job and then your home because you can't pay the mortgage or rent it will be entirely your own fault and so won't accept any help from the state or charity.

  • Quite Boris, quite. :rolleyes:

    You've not said what your argument is here, Morgan.


    This country is far from perfect, but what the hell does that have to do with stopping the proliferation of chemical weapons?

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  • You seem to think that people prefer sleeping in cold streets to having a home for themselves and their families. Perhaps you can get a doctor's appointment within 3 weeks and aren't one of those waiting months for treatment. And the point is that it doesn't matter who's " doing it", it's going on and no one seems to be interested in doing anything about it. Still, you can console yourself with the thought that if ever you need urgent medical treatment you will be the only really genuine one in the queue, if ever you get stabbed it will the robber's ignorance which is to blame and not the lack of police on the streets and if ever you have the misfortune to lose your job and then your home because you can't pay the mortgage or rent it will be entirely your own fault and so won't accept any help from the state or charity.

    I think this is too simplistic a response, Morgan. Whilst we all agree that there is a lack of appropriate housing available, (and it is worth reminding ourselves that the government has embarked on a massive housebuilding programme), the fact remains that there are many people sleeping rough who do so either because they refuse help or because their anti-social behaviour has had them thrown out of their accommodation.


    That is not to say that there is nothing we can do about that, because in my view, we should be setting up hostels and the police should be removing these people who are on the streets and transfer them there. People should not have the choice of begging and sleeping rough on our streets.


    As for the NHS, this needs major structural change and modernisation of its antiquated systems. Otherwise, we just end up throwing more money at it with little to show for that, and still with demands for more money.


    The government is trying to deal with these major NHS issues, but is being hampered by continued politicisation (or cynical 'weaponisation') by the Labour Party, even though they did not even attempt to introduce reforms to address deep seated problems in our health service. What I do remember is Andy Burnham trying to cover up (rather than deal with) the lack of care in hospitals which saw people drinking out of flower vases to hydrate themselves.

  • I really cannot blame the government for most of these topics except the first one , too many people using NHS as a cure all , many homeless have help but will not take it, black kids killing each other through ignorance in London is not anyone's fault but their own , are white kids doing it ?

    As far as the first article is concerned, I don't think we should rush to judgement on this. The police are trying to protect the pensioner concerned and his wife, and I dare say we don't know the background in terms of why his relatives are not permitted to have contact with him.


    What is clear to me is that the traveller community has within its ranks people who constantly ignore our laws and think they can do what they like. This is not helped by the fact that the police tend to leave them alone as it is too difficult to deal with them.


    A clampdown is long overdue. That is what the government should be concentrating on now. This is just another example of the madness of the political correctness that poisons our society.

  • You've not said what your argument is here, Morgan.


    This country is far from perfect, but what the hell does that have to do with stopping the proliferation of chemical weapons?

    It's not about chemical weapons. It's about the sheer hypocrisy of saying that "Airstrikes show we stand up for principle and civilised values" when it is so obvious from our numerous and unsolved domestic problems that " principles and civilised values " are so sadly lacking in our own society.


    What sort of principles means families have to live in B & Bs for months? What sort of civilised values means that people have to rely on charity and churches to feed their children because the self righteous " I'm alright jacks." want to believe that the unfortunate are all architects of their own misfortune?

  • Looks like since your hiatus, Morgan, you've been reading some of Jeremy Corbyn's leaflets.:P Back on fine form.;)


    Welcome back.:)


    There is a rule everyone should apply to Boris, ignore him, he's an idiot.


    We have lots of problems in our country, but animals like Assad should be stood up to, so I don't compare domestic issues with that.

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  • Thanks for the welcome back. I've been a Tory all my life but this lot are beyond the pale. It's the sheer injustices of the system that get me. I'm all for kicking the feckless into life but when people are literally being robbed by the government denying them help when they need and deserve it, when May does nothing but announce another "crackdown " on drugs, crime or terrorism when the only answer is zero tolerance and harsher prison sentences, for any member of this government to say "We stand for principles and civilised values." is sheer hypocrisy.

  • You seem to think that people prefer sleeping in cold streets to having a home for themselves and their families. Perhaps you can get a doctor's appointment within 3 weeks and aren't one of those waiting months for treatment. And the point is that it doesn't matter who's " doing it", it's going on and no one seems to be interested in doing anything about it. Still, you can console yourself with the thought that if ever you need urgent medical treatment you will be the only really genuine one in the queue, if ever you get stabbed it will the robber's ignorance which is to blame and not the lack of police on the streets and if ever you have the misfortune to lose your job and then your home because you can't pay the mortgage or rent it will be entirely your own fault and so won't accept any help from the state or charity.

    I have Bupa, I pay for it , police on every street corner will not prevent the stabbings and you know it ,as for the homeless , yes what an industry it is .

    I have lost my job twice, each time I was told that as I am stupid enough to pay my bills and look after myself , I would get SWEET FA , what a country.

  • I have Bupa, I pay for it , police on every street corner will not prevent the stabbings and you know it ,as for the homeless , yes what an industry it is .

    I have lost my job twice, each time I was told that as I am stupid enough to pay my bills and look after myself , I would get SWEET FA , what a country.

    If you are able to provide for yourself then there is no reason you should get anything from taxpayers. It's those who can't provide for themselves who should get the help. Unemployment, illness and disability can strike anyone and you can't save for a rainy day when you're on minimum wage and up to 70% of your income goes on the rent. Bupa is great until you get older. Then you'll find your premiums becoming less affordable and that they aren't quite so keen on paying out what you're paying in for.

  • Thanks for the welcome back. I've been a Tory all my life but this lot are beyond the pale. It's the sheer injustices of the system that get me. I'm all for kicking the feckless into life but when people are literally being robbed by the government denying them help when they need and deserve it, when May does nothing but announce another "crackdown " on drugs, crime or terrorism when the only answer is zero tolerance and harsher prison sentences, for any member of this government to say "We stand for principles and civilised values." is sheer hypocrisy.

    It would be interesting to hear your solutions, Morgan, and where the money will come from to implement them. Unfortunately, the last Labour Government left us in a bind and we are still paying for it now.

  • Thanks for the welcome back. I've been a Tory all my life but this lot are beyond the pale. It's the sheer injustices of the system that get me. I'm all for kicking the feckless into life but when people are literally being robbed by the government denying them help when they need and deserve it, when May does nothing but announce another "crackdown " on drugs, crime or terrorism when the only answer is zero tolerance and harsher prison sentences, for any member of this government to say "We stand for principles and civilised values." is sheer hypocrisy.

    But what does that have to do with airstrikes? That's what you've put in the title of this thread, so I infer from that you seem to be arguing that we should deal with domestic issues first, then worry about overseas things afterwards. Is that your argument, because I don't know yet and you've reeled me into the debate now?:)

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  • If you are able to provide for yourself then there is no reason you should get anything from taxpayers. It's those who can't provide for themselves who should get the help. Unemployment, illness and disability can strike anyone and you can't save for a rainy day when you're on minimum wage and up to 70% of your income goes on the rent. Bupa is great until you get older. Then you'll find your premiums becoming less affordable and that they aren't quite so keen on paying out what you're paying in for.

    Who can't provide for themselves ?,minimum wage isn't for life as far as I know , cut your cloth, don't have kids you expect Nanny state to raise .Why should i subsidise the likes of my bother in law who refuses to work? , I also pay NI or should I die on the side of the street as I have Bupa too and must be punished !

  • I think I get it with Morgan and I'm with him all the way. Our fine government bombs Syria because we "stand for civilised values" but, in our own country, civilised values are going down the toilet.


    There is something grotesquely funny about getting all fired up and organising a three-country band of brothers going off to bomb Syrian warehouses that might - or quite possibly might not any longer - contain chemical weapons. And we choose to take this courageous step only after Assad has pretty much finished killing almost half a million Syrian enemies, dissenters and rebels. And we justify this because we in the West see ourselves as much more sensitive and humane about the methods we condone for killing people - you would think our gentler approach was a Dignitas-style euthanasia.


    Morgan's list has no contradictions. The bombing of Syria is as ineffectual and pointless as doing nothing at at all, and that is precisely what our rotten Government (of any political hue) excels at: doing nothing, especially when it is clearly vital to do something. Our rotten government also excels at doing something when it doesn't matter at all or is worthless or done too late. The government calls that an "initiative" or "investment". It's really just a voting bait and it gives them something to do during work hours, like a meeting to go to.


    Frankly, I've given up complaining. Most of the comments from the public (and this forum is a fair representation), are just carping, nitpicking and an obsessive preoccupation with regulations and processes (although I'm with Old Boy all the way on NHS reform and hostels for homeless). The Government reflects and represents our moaning nitpicking citizens. That's democracy for you! We get what we deserve.


    This country's idea - and the government's - of a solution to all our problems, is to throw more money at it. The problem isn't lack of money, it's lack of common sense, coupled with over-dependency or exploitation by too many people of the freebies offered in a nanny state. The NHS has to be closed down and reincarnated as private health, with a government-funded basic health insurance package - and that must include A&E, because that's where a hell of a lot of people are dying through neglect and mismanaged resource.


    The homeless need to be sheltered and fed in large warehouse dormitory-type accommodation, properly security managed and with some basic food. This would be a dirt cheap but civilised solution (you could knock up those giant shelters in just a few days - it would only cost a couple of bombs hurled at Syria) and for those who are temporarily down on their luck it can be regarded as a halfway house until they get on their feet again. As for state expenditure (aka tax payer) on family housing and family benefits, doesn't anyone understand that allowing that to be pro-rata to the number of children a family produces is insane?


    I could go on and on! But what's the point? Britain today produces problems, not solutions

  • It would be interesting to hear your solutions, Morgan, and where the money will come from to implement them. Unfortunately, the last Labour Government left us in a bind and we are still paying for it now.

    Yet we have the money to carry out airstrikes and the such like.

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • I do understand where you are coming from, although I don't think any government would be wise to concentrate solely on domestic issues.


    It is with great regret that I see Russia becoming a problem for us again, and just sitting tight and hoping it will go away is not sensible in my view. Russia seems to have no issues with Assad using chemical weapons and indeed he has even used them just recently on British soil. Whilst we could have just watched the US and Trump's new good friend Macron as they bombed Assad's chemical storage plants, there are wider issues involved, including supporting an unstable US president do the right thing and also supporting us in the reaction to the Salisbury attack.


    I really do hope that we can persuade Putin eventually that we are better friends than enemies, and persuade them that supporting Assad is a bad idea. But my common sense tells me that this is not reality, and all attempts to bring that about are like spitting in the wind. We are forced into making these gestures in respect of chemical weapons because there are so few alternative options. We look away now at our peril.


    I am completely with you on NHS reform and dealing with the homeless and also expecting people to carry personal responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, actually doing something about it doesn't seem to play well with the electorate these days.

  • Yet we have the money to carry out airstrikes and the such like.

    Sadly, it is a bad world out there, and expenditure on defence is essential if we wish to survive.

  • Sadly, it is a bad world out there, and expenditure on defence is essential if we wish to survive.

    I must have missed Syria attacking the UK, when did it happen?

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • I must have missed Syria attacking the UK, when did it happen?

    Maybe not, but this is about the use of chemical weapons. There was an attack on our soil by the Russians, who are propping up Assad's odious regime, which is using chemical weapons at will.


    Do you think the world should just put up with this? We have surely learned from experience that when dictators are allowed to abuse their power without being brought to book, they just get stronger and more brazen in their adventures against other countries.

  • I'm ambivalent on the chemicals = a red line rationale for our band-of-brothers gesture bombing raid. But in the final analysis I buy entirely into your reasons that it had to go ahead. One only has to listen to Andrew Marr interviewing Jeremy Corbyn .....!


    I think we need to ridicule Russia, especially in the UN, focusing on their childish lies and excuses. I think we also ought to make it clear to the world generally and the UN specifically that Russia's use of the veto is crippling the already dubious effectiveness of the UN and, in future, either decisions should be based on a majority vote (eg 70%+) or a new United Nations assembly should be formed that excludes Russia. Because as it stands the UN is no laughing matter.

  • Who can't provide for themselves ?,minimum wage isn't for life as far as I know , cut your cloth, don't have kids you expect Nanny state to raise .Why should i subsidise the likes of my bother in law who refuses to work? , I also pay NI or should I die on the side of the street as I have Bupa too and must be punished.

    You're making a nonsense out of the argument. Not everybody has the same abilities or even the same chances to get on. All this rubbish about not having kids you can't afford is bollocks too. The cost of raising a child to the age of 21 has been estimated at over £200,000. How many prospective parents have that in the bank? Very few. They are just hoping on future earnings and if misfortune strikes through accident , ill health or redundancy they need help.


    Your " I'm alright Jack, let everyone else struggle." is great while you are alright. Come the day you have a serious accident or illness you'll be singing a different tune.


    And I'm not saying those who won't work should be supported. I'm saying that those who can't work should be. I very much doubt if your bro in law is able to get state help nowadays if he simply refuses to work. There is a strict system of sanctions in operation and hundreds of genuine claimants are being refused welfare and people are losing their homes. They aren't all feckless layabouts as you seem to think.

  • Utter rubbish , not everybody needs to be a genius to get on but the expectations of the working class to be handed things for nothing is causing serious problems .This explains all the single mothers with three kids by different father's nicely.

    As for my brother in law, he has a council house , he is fit , he does not work , all truths .

  • Utter rubbish , not everybody needs to be a genius to get on but the expectations of the working class to be handed things for nothing is causing serious problems .This explains all the single mothers with three kids by different father's nicely.

    As for my brother in law, he has a council house , he is fit , he does not work , all truths .

    It strikes me that you have no idea of reality. If you think your brother in law is scamming the system then I suggest you report him. Of course there are the workshy and of course some people try to exploit the system but what makes you think that council house tenants don't want to get on in life and do better for themselves and their children is your arrogant belief in your own superiority and your arrogance that you are 'better ' than they are in some way. You aren't.


    One day, misfortune may come your way and your little apple cart in which you ride so arrogantly over what you see as the failings of others may collapse and leave you in the gutter too.


    Most of us are but one step from disaster in one way or another. Yours, should it come, may teach you to have a little more empathy for others less fortunate than you are at present.

  • It strikes me that you have no idea of reality. If you think your brother in law is scamming the system then I suggest you report him. Of course there are the workshy and of course some people try to exploit the system but what makes you think that council house tenants don't want to get on in life and do better for themselves and their children is your arrogant belief in your own superiority and your arrogance that you are 'better ' than they are in some way. You aren't.


    One day, misfortune may come your way and your little apple cart in which you ride so arrogantly over what you see as the failings of others may collapse and leave you in the gutter too.


    Most of us are but one step from disaster in one way or another. Yours, should it come, may teach you to have a little more empathy for others less fortunate than you are at present.

    Why are we arguing in such a binary fashion? Surely we all know that there is a widespread freeloading exploitation of social benefits and a dependency or assumption of provision by a nanny state that caters for or even encourages a loser mentality. Surely we also know that amidst that is a vast number of people who through no fault of their own are terribly down on their luck or simply can't make ends meet.


    I think we have to work from the premise that we believe in and encourage an enterprise culture, which means equal opportunity rather than an equal standard of living. If not enough people in Britain believed that then our country is doomed economically and socially .


    Then all that's left is to have a government and society which acts with decency and compassion to assist those who through no fault of their own have fallen by the wayside.


    I think the Conservative government has the potential to operate to that dual formula but it needs a leader who has the intellect and emotional intelligence to make that happen. I'm not sure who that is. I know it's not Theresa May. Not because she is heartless but simply because there is practically nothing upstairs.


    I think the Labour Party also has MP's who could achieve the right balance of what could be described as socially responsible and regulated capitalism. A couple of decades ago Blair got close but increasingly it seemed he wasn't quite the genuine article - but, then again, in politics it's bloody difficult to be completely genuine. Brown was also a capitalist with his heart in the right place but the weight of leadership heightened some personality defects which made him un-re-electable. As for the Labour Party's Corbyn and his Svengali puppet master McDonnell, they offer a contribution to the human race that can best be described as malignant.

  • I think we have to work from the premise that we believe in and encourage an enterprise culture, which means equal opportunity rather than an equal standard of living.

    That's an excellent statement, but without decent education, that will not be possible. And I agree about achieving the right balance too, although disagree with you that Blair came anywhere close in achieving this. Thatcher was the closest so far at achieving your aims of a right balance and encouraging a enterprise culture, at least for one half of the country...

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  • It's a myth that there is widespread fraud in the welfare system. Obviously the system needs tightening as far as some benefits, such as housing benefit, are concerned but the idea of a lifetime of luxury for claiming to have a bad back is a total myth perpetrated by the Daily Mail and the DWP itself in order to justify denying welfare to genuine claimants.


    There are numerous stories of genuine claimants and even the terminally ill being denied welfare. And it's the same with unemployment benefits. Everyone "knows" or "knows of " the legendary man in the next street who has been a builder for the last fifteen years but claims disability benefits and has a "free " car. Life for the sick and unemployed is not just turning up at the Jobcentre and signing on for the next fortnight. There are very strict checks now and medical evidence, even from consultants, has been questioned and disputed by DWP decision makers.


    https://www.theguardian.com/ne…ud-error-universal-credit


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money…ts-wrongly-barred-7699359

  • I think you're right, that the welfare state is not nearly as much of a soft touch as it used to be. I'm thinking more about the sense of state entitlements or "rights" which sap an enterprise culture.

  • I think you're right, that the welfare state is not nearly as much of a soft touch as it used to be. I'm thinking more about the sense of state entitlements or "rights" which sap an enterprise culture.


    Obviously as a taxpayer I don't want to keep the layabouts either but I do want the genuinely sick and unemployed looked after and not, as has happened, the DWP denying them the help they need and sometimes lying and committing fraud to justify doing so. Sending people to food banks so they can feed their kids shouldn't be the answer in a civilised country.