Plot to keep UK in customs union and water down immigration and border controls

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  • As I've said before (prepares to duck! ^^ ) I am actually quite pro European in principle, but you simply cannot merge different peoples with different languages and laws together.

    I have nothing but sympathy for Europeans. They should be allowed to be who they want to be, and their country should be allowed what they want it to be. Trying to make them all the same via draconian regulation and forced immigration of refugees and other EU citizens does not create harmony. It creates conflict.

    I cannot believe that the EU has been allowed so much power as to dictate that we cannot deny unskilled immigrants entry into our country. I will qualify that comment. Many 'unskilled' EU immigrants are actually qualified, but they earn more in the UK doing unskilled work than they can earn in their own country doing professional/qualified work. It is bound to end in disaster for the indigenous. Also, it's a one generation situation. The next generation produced by EU immigrants in the UK will have the same lofty ambitions and expectations as the UK indigenous future generations.

    What is the solution? Mass immigration for ever more in order to keep a massive pool of people happy to work for minimum pay, and a massive amount of underemployed, unemployed and welfare recipients? Logic says this is not sustainable. We need to change course to provide better paid high tech employment instead of encouraging low paid employment via mass immigration, topped up by welfare, which in effect is just subsiding the employers who employ low paid workers and is the big draw of the UK, at the moment. The country is running out of money to support this massive drain of welfare payments.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • On your last sentence alone , nothing was wrong with it , that is what we thought the EEC was , this mutation called the EU should of been put down years ago , now we are finding out just how overbearing it has become and perversely people want to stay in it!

    The thing is in the internet age, we can go back and look at what was discussed and agreed after WW2, and the European leaders were absolutely clear what their mission was to be, which was to merge the nation states of Europe so closely together that there could never be a war again. Even Churchill was one of the main sponsors for the plan, with one major caveat, he did not wish Britain to be part of it as we had our empire at the time.

    Fast forward to today and the European leaders are simply trying to do what their predecessors have been doing for several decades now, but I am unsure how signed on the different peoples of Europe are to this project. The fact that far right parties are gaining in popularity, shows the peoples are not as keen on "more Europe" as their leaders. And if that is the case, they simply have to vote for different people.

  • I cannot believe that the EU has been allowed so much power as to dictate that we cannot deny unskilled immigrants entry into our country.

    You must have misunderstood my earlier comment Fidget, it's the complete opposite. The EU allows controls. What it doesn't allow is prevention of free movement. If migrants cannot find work, then they have no right to stay in another EU country and claim benefits.

    The next generation produced by EU immigrants in the UK will have the same lofty ambitions and expectations as the UK indigenous future generations.

    Exactly. No one will want to do the grunt work.

    What is the solution? Mass immigration for ever more in order to keep a massive pool of people happy to work for minimum pay, and a massive amount of underemployed, unemployed and welfare recipients? Logic says this is not sustainable. We need to change course to provide better paid high tech employment instead of encouraging low paid employment via mass immigration, topped up by welfare, which in effect is just subsiding the employers who employ low paid workers and is the big draw of the UK, at the moment. The country is running out of money to support this massive drain of welfare payments.

    I agree Fidget, but as been discussed here before and other places, people want as cheaper stuff as possible. Higher wages mean higher costs. Are the Great British public prepared to pay for decent wages and training for people in return for clampdowns on low skilled immigration? At the moment it seems we want it both ways.

    A cup of Starbucks coffee is already expensive, but I've yet to be in one of their shops in London and be served by a English person yet. All immigrant labour. Get rid of them and the price of that already very expensive cop of coffee will double.

  • Fast forward to today and the European leaders are simply trying to do what their predecessors have been doing for several decades now, but I am unsure how signed on the different peoples of Europe are to this project. The fact that far right parties are gaining in popularity, shows the peoples are not as keen on "more Europe" as their leaders. And if that is the case, they simply have to vote for different people.

    That works, if they get a real choice, and the politicians deliver on their promises. Our UK politicians were all pro-EU, until UKIP came along. What do you do if all the politicians are all pro-EU? Not voting doesn't work. It just gives them free rein to do whatever they like.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Well I could mention petrol bombs, but I won't as incitement to violence is against this site's rules.;)

    All this Brexit crap must be clearer by October. So whether Boris is in the headlines or not, whether May has a bad throat during a conference or not etc etc. By October it all should be clearer and if its not, then in one way what I've just said, may not entirely be a joke.

    If the politicians don't deliver on Brexit, something will happen. I live in one of the last few areas of London that voted overwhelmingly for Brexit and feelings in my area are running high on this issue, for reasons which perhaps you might be able to guess at.

  • Downing Street has produced a third model for handling customs after the UK leaves the EU, the BBC understands.

    Details of the new plan have not been revealed publicly but senior ministers will discuss it at Chequers, the prime minister's country retreat, on Friday.

    Ministers have been involved in heated discussions recently as they tried to choose between two earlier models.

    I really couldn't be bothered to post last week about the EU meeting and May's attendance, because what was there to say? She went, spoke to them for five minutes and then they spent the rest of the time arguing over the migrants issue.

    But hey, today our great leader has made it all so much "clearer" with her customs union plan. Instead of choosing one of two options, she has gone for the "third way." Tony Blair would be proud.

    Of course, we don't know what the details are, but i am sure by this Friday's meeting at Chequers, all will be made clear and everything will be resolved...:rolleyes:

  • I'm waiting to see what the 'third model' is, but if it means we stay under EU rules, collect EU taxes for them, or lose control over our borders and fishing, then we haven't left the EU at all. Who would we vote for then? There wouldn't be an honest politician/party to vote for! Not one that believes in democracy.

    The no deal/cliff edge option may be tough for the UK, initially, but it would be much worse for the EU, and we get to keep our £39bn to offset the initial hardship.

    I am hoping the EU are so nasty and vindictive that May has no choice but to go for no deal and we can start getting the UK sorted and on it's way to full sovereignty. People work so much harder when they get the benefits, and less hard when the benefits go to everyone except those that earn it. I think this applies to countries, as well as individuals.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I am hoping the EU are so nasty and vindictive that May has no choice but to go for no deal and we can start getting the UK sorted and on it's way to full sovereignty.

    That's what I'm hoping for: No fudge or compromise and then there's no way the remainers can ease us back in by stealth. NI and Eire will have to get together and sort out what, if any, direct border controls are needed.

    60% of our external trade is with non-EU countries and is subject to customs control and inspection so extending the systems to encompass EU trade shouldn't be THAT difficult.

    As shown by the Felixstow example most of the paperwork is filed electronically and before the goods even move out of the UK factories and also from the ships before they dock with imports. HMRC then just do AQL inspections to ensure the rules are being obeyed.

    (AQL = Audited Quality Level, usually 1.6%)

  • I've emailed the PM to say I expect her to uphold her party's manifesto promises re Brexit. It probably won't do any good, but it can't do any harm either.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I've emailed the PM to say I expect her to uphold her party's manifesto promises re Brexit. It probably won't do any good, but it can't do any harm either.

    You may just as as well have sent the email to your cat

  • I am hoping the EU are so nasty and vindictive that May has no choice but to go for no deal and we can start getting the UK sorted and on it's way to full sovereignty.

    People work so much harder when they get the benefits, and less hard when the benefits go to everyone except those that earn it. I think this applies to countries, as well as individuals.

    How much more nasty and vindictive does the EU have to be before Britain gets the message?

    Let's get real here: May's strategy is to stay in the EU but with a package that is sort of Brexit-ish. This will appeal to 3 segments:

    1) The Remainders

    2) The Brexiteers who wish they hadn't voted Brexit

    3) The Brexiteers who have have become so disillusioned or bored that they don't give a damn bored whether Britain stays or leaves

    May then hopes that between leaving with that 2nd class/vassal state type of deal there will be enough time for Britain to come out of its bunker of economic depression or decision paralysis and show a recovery and the public will vote this stupid apology for a human being back into office

    All this stuff about betraying the original referendum result and hence a betrayal of democracy is just posturing by politicians and voxpop voters (those who love to pontificate in front of a TV camera but often haven't the faintest idea what it means other than power to the people and often can't even spell democracy).

    I think May will get away with this.

    Personally I think for Britain too stay in the EU without full membership will be like buying a Third Class ticket on the Titanic knowing the rivets are substandard and there aren't enough lifeboats for passengers in all classes. The EU Titanic will eventually sink with us in it. I don't care. I just want to sell my house during that brief period of misplaced relief that turns into a temporary financial euphoria, rent instead and invest my money in US$ stocks.

    Edited once, last by casablanca (July 7, 2018 at 7:58 AM).

  • Well, if you want a few tips about which American shares to put your dosh in, I'd suggest you take a look at my media mergers threads for ideas, it's something I am heavily involved with in at the moment. As for Brexit, I think your third class classification is pretty much what I think could happen too. The worst possible outcome.

    And as to your thoughts on May's strategy, I agree there too. It looks like what we're going to get on Friday will be staying in the EU in all but name. Would anyone be fooled by that? As for whether May will get away with it, we'll see. If the Conservative Brexiteers bring her down knowing full well most of their colleagues are against them, it could open the door for Corbyn.

    If at the end of this process, whenever the end may come.... the UK does not control its own borders, its own money and its own laws, the reason why many of us voted to leave the EU, I think the British public will be unforgiving, very, to those in power.

  • Cabinet ministers have gathered at Chequers in a bid to thrash out an agreement on the shape of the UK's future relationship with the EU.

    Theresa May has said they have "a duty" to reach agreement on Friday, amid splits over how closely the UK should stick to EU rules after Brexit.

    She is expected to propose keeping the UK aligned with the EU on trading rules for goods but not services.

    Today's the big day when the heavens will open and May will find her senses and declare that we are leaving the EU properly and will not be bound by their laws....

    I think the heat is getting to me.X/

  • We are relying on the Brexiter politicians to ensure democracy prevails and we leave the EU, in it's entirety. If that doesn't happen, then democracy is dead as far as I am concerned.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I wonder what the outcome will be.

    I will never understand the logic of paying the EU billions for 'free' trade that produces an £80bn deficit! The EU should be paying us!

    I am absolutely fuming that kowtowing to the EU is even being considered. I hope the EU will reject it, but I'm not certain what the outcome will be either way.

    I don't know how any country manages to survive outside the EU. They must be a figment of my imagination!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Looks like kowtowing it will be..::cursing:

    Quote

    The cabinet has reached a "collective" agreement on the basis of the UK's future relationship with the EU after Brexit, Theresa May has said.

    Ministers have signed up to a plan to create a free trade area for industrial and agricultural goods with the bloc, based on a "common rule book".

    They also supported what could amount to a "combined customs territory".

    The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg said the plan, agreed after a 12-hour meeting, would "anger many Tory Brexiteers".

    Our political editor said the prime minister had "picked a side" by opting for a closer relationship with the EU than many colleagues desired - and she now had to sell it to her party and the other European leaders.

    So, basically May now goes to EU and says we'll stay in the customs union in all but name, but she'll ask for a special deal for services, especially the City which she wants to be excluded from the "arrangement." I'm sure they'll oblige...:S

    We'll obey all their fisheries and other CAP rules as long as our banks can do what they want.:rolleyes:

  • On Newsnight just now, Bill Cash and Dominic Grieve were debating this matter.

    Cash made the good point that now the EU Withdrawal bill is now law, with these proposals, May is in effect going against that law. Grieve replied that Cash's arguments are just "abstracts."

  • The only hope now is that the EU reject this nonsense and there's not time left for yet another shabby betrayal to be made.

    That is my hope too, but I fear that May will concede even more ground in her attempts to appease the EU.

    I have this (unrealistic) hope that May expects it to be rejected and then she can justify a no-deal Brexit as being entirely due to the EU's intransigence, and rejection of everything that doesn't give them full control and a great wad of money. Just a dream but ..... weirder things have happened.

    No doubt about it now though. Democracy is dead. Politicians are now our masters, rather than our representatives. MP's blatantly defy their electorates in order to remain under EU rule; the EU that has set the European standard for ignoring the wishes of their respective electorates.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

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