Halal and kosher meat

Please treat other members in a friendly and respectful manner: Our Community Guidelines.

  • Pardon me for mentioning my pet hate, but I have a major problem with halal and kosher meat being sold to the general public as much of it is non-stun slaughter. First and foremost, I care about animal welfare. It isn't any one religion I abhor, it is the demanded methods of slaughter that I object to. I would say the same about any religion that put ideology before animal welfare. We banned the pagan sacrifice of cockerels in this country, so why do we allow any animal sacrifice at all?


    UK law stipulates that animals must be rendered unconscious before slaughter, but there is an exemption for ritually slaughtered meat. Kosher meat is never stunned before slaughter, and although some halal producers claim that the animal is stunned first it is a 'partial' stun, where the animal will recover if not bled out quickly. Some scientists claim that the partial stun only paralyses the animal but that it is still conscious and feels pain. A full stun renders the animal unconscious and can, on occasion, kill the animal outright, but the heart will keep beating for few minutes until the animal is bled out. Many opponents of ritual slaughter say that the continuance of a beating heart should be sufficient to cater for the demand that the animal dies from blood loss. There is much disagreement about partial stunning. Supporters of ritual slaughter will tell you that non-stun is fine, as the blood loss leads to a quick death, but this has been disproven, especially in cattle, as they have an additional artery that feeds the brain which is not cut during during the slitting of the throat, and therefore they remain conscious much longer.


    Additionally, the religious exemption also says that ritually slaughtered meat should only be sold to people of that religion, but this is not enforced, and halal and kosher meat is sold to the general public without any identification.


    Non-stun slaughter is on the increase in the UK, and the % of non-stun slaughter far outweighs the % of people of those religions in the UK. Muslims are encouraged to demand non-stun slaughter by the HFA (Halal food authority).


    To add insult to injury, each halal slaughtered animal incurs a zakat tax, which goes to fund Muslim 'charities', and some speculate that it also funds terrorism.


    Halal is the only food provided in many schools and hospitals because Muslims refuse to eat Haram meat (forbidden, non-halal) and will not allow halal and non-halal foods to be prepared in the same kitchen, therefore it is more cost efficient for schools and hospitals to prepare halal for everyone. Many fast food establishment and restaurants only serve Halal for the same reason, eg. Subway, Kentucky Fried chicken.


    There is no guaranteed way to identify ritually slaughtered meat. I check the EU number of the slaughterhouses and packing plants, but there are no up to date lists of which slaughterhouses produce religiously slaughtered meat.


    If anyone is interested, I can post links to articles. I won't post the videos of non-stun slaughter as these are too horrific for the average person to watch without suffering nightmares, but I am happy to post links to written articles, letters and responses.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • so why do we allow any animal sacrifice at all?

    Political correctness. It shouldn't happen in this country in the 21st century, but is an example of how this country, culture and people are being "changed" to fit a certain agenda.

    Muslims are encouraged to demand non-stun slaughter by the HFA (Halal food authority).

    Where's this agency based, Saudi Arabia? Whatever happened to British law and standards?X/

    Halal is the only food provided in many schools and hospitals because Muslims refuse to eat Haram meat (forbidden, non-halal) and will not allow halal and non-halal foods to be prepared in the same kitchen, therefore it is more cost efficient for schools and hospitals to prepare halal for everyone. Many fast food establishment and restaurants only serve Halal for the same reason, eg. Subway, Kentucky Fried chicken.

    Did not know that the fast food outlets sold this too. Terrible. As for the stuff being provided in schools, this is another example of why religious schools should not be allowed to expand. Look here: Should there be more faith and grammar schools? Should there be any at all?


    We are either one country with one set of customs and laws, or we're not. Look at the rest of the world to see what happens when you mix different peoples, religions and customs together. It doesn't work.

    To add insult to injury, each halal slaughtered animal incurs a zakat tax, which goes to fund Muslim 'charities', and some speculate that it also funds terrorism.

    DOesn't surprise me in the least.


    Additionally, the religious exemption also says that ritually slaughtered meat should only be sold to people of that religion, but this is not enforced, and halal and kosher meat is sold to the general public without any identification.

    Did not know that.X( There should be warning signs.


    If anyone is interested, I can post links to articles.

    Go ahead, Fidget. It's not a topic I know anything about.


    And just a reminder to those who may want to turn the thread into a general rant about religion and different peoples, we have our general thread on this site for that purpose: The Great Debate on Immigration, Race and Religion in the UK


    Lets keep this thread tightly focussed on the subject of halal and kosher meat, please.


    On the subject of meat generally though, I think meat's time maybe coming to a close.We've talked about synthetic meat on this site before and here's a few threads I've found on the subject:


    Veggie Egg anyone?

    Would you eat chlorinated chicken?


    The subject of a meat derived product also came up in this thread, which maybe of interest to some: New plastic £10 note to be revealed. Will it be as bad as the £5 note?


    Another thread maybe of interest: CCTV to be compulsory in all abattoirs in England


    Ok, that's enough links trying to encourage people to use the site.;):)


    Great thread Fidget. Well informed and detailed.:thumbup:

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • Thanks for your interest, Horizon. I'll try not to inundate you with data, but if you run a google search you will see it is very prolific.


    We'll start with the legislation for Halal and Kosher meat production. All Kosher is non-stun and all the rear ends of animal killed for Kosher end up on general sale, as Jews are not permitted to eat the rear half.


    Legislation from gov.uk


    Note the requirements include the following:

    • the meat must be intended for consumption by Jews or Muslims

    Second, this is the only online slaughterhouse list I have been able to find, but it is out of date, as some slaughterhouses have been purchased by Muslims and now operate Halal slaughter. I cannot find any list of Kosher slaughterhouses.


    The initial page is where Muslims are encouraged to demand non-stun slaughter. There are separate pages for poultry and red meat.


    EU slaughterhouse codes denoting which are Halal



    Third, the increase in non-stun slaughter. There are hundreds of articles on the net about this.


    increase in non-stun slaughter


    Fourth, the major fast food and restaurant chains selling Halal: remember Muslims will not allow Halal and non-Halal to be prepared in the same kitchen, so all their food is Halal.


    Halal food outlets


    Schools are serving Halal to all children. There are hundreds of articles on this, but I will just include a couple. The first where schools wanted to ban unstunned meat, but were forced to serve it. Remember, they do not serve Halal and non-Halal. They only serve Halal for the whole school, not just the Muslim pupils and staff.


    Schools not allowed to ban unstunned meat


    I forgot to mention that Halal meat is banned from the Houses of Parliament. Why can't we have the same choice? Virtually all the major supermarkets sell unlabelled Halal meat.


    Halal meat banned from Parliament


    Zakat tax on Halal meat and products, eg. Warburtons bread is Halal certified, and dozens of your regular purchases are Halal certified, and that certification comes at a very high price!


    Halal certification


    https://boycotthalal.com/halal-funds-terrorists-zakat/


    Muslims and Jews cannot eat pork, ham, bacon, etc., so you can be fairly sure this has been humanely slaughtered. It is sad that animals are raised and slaughtered for food, but if meat production is ever banned, the country will quickly become devoid of all wildlife. Rhinoceros horn and elephant tusks are not needed for food, but too many people are happy to wipe them out of existence.


    I hope I haven't overdone the links, but if you read one or two it may tempt you to do more research.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • It's one of those "mission creep" situations where something minor turns into something major if it's allowed to do so. This is not just an example of parallel customs and standards to British ones, that's bad enough, but also an example of how these parallel things can inch out our own customs and standards eventually too.


    Ok, onto your points:


    Note the requirements include the following:

    the meat must be intended for consumption by Jews or Muslims

    This line of "legislation" is problematic in my non-lawyer opinion.


    How can intention be proven? I assume the onus is on the seller to prove intent, but apart from those who are orthodox, how could a shop prove that someone is Jewish or Muslim? Furthermore, if the "law" is broken, how is it even enforceable?


    These guidance notes are total nonsense and done for purely PC reasons, in my opinion. Who's going to check on the slaughterman that they've waited at least two minutes after they've bled the geese before carrying out the next steps, as but one example?



    The bit about the animals must be put in restraining equipment before killing them is vile.:cursing: The animals must be terrified right before death.;(


    These things are alien to us and even more important than that, they are unnecessarily cruel.

    Third, the increase in non-stun slaughter. There are hundreds of articles on the net about this.


    increase in non-stun slaughter

    Three million sheep killed this way!8|X( And 184 million poultry and 21,000 cattle too.:cursing: And the article finishs with this:


    "Lord Gardiner said: “The Government would prefer all animals to be stunned before slaughter, but we have been very clear over a long period – since the 1933 act – we respect the rights of the Jewish and Muslim communities to consume meat in accordance with their religious practices."


    How can we blame Muslims and Jews, when we have enacted into our own law this barbaric behaviour. What was the government at the time thinking??


    A simple step would be to revoke the legislation. Will that be done? Fat chance in hell.

    Fourth, the major fast food and restaurant chains selling Halal: remember Muslims will not allow Halal and non-Halal to be prepared in the same kitchen, so all their food is Halal.


    Halal food outlets

    Take your point, but I'd be suspicious whether all the fast food companies and restaurants actually do this though. It increases their costs, so they might do it sometimes, but I doubt they always get halal.


    Schools are serving Halal to all children. There are hundreds of articles on this, but I will just include a couple. The first where schools wanted to ban unstunned meat, but were forced to serve it. Remember, they do not serve Halal and non-Halal. They only serve Halal for the whole school, not just the Muslim pupils and staff.


    Schools not allowed to ban unstunned meat

    I forgot to mention that Halal meat is banned from the Houses of Parliament. Why can't we have the same choice? Virtually all the major supermarkets sell unlabelled Halal meat.


    Halal meat banned from Parliament

    The more I'm reading all these articles, the angrier I'm getting.X(


    Unnecessary and divisive is forcing the schools to do something they don't want to. Although I understand now more why religious groups want their own schools. Perhaps they should look abroad to accommodate their school wishes.


    Do you know Fidget what the outcome was? Did the schools keep the ban, or did the Muslim leaders get their way?


    As there is already the law that I highlighted, if it went to court as the Muslim leaders threatened, they would win.:thumbdown:


    And on the parliament article, its quite ironic that MPs refused to allow parliament to have halal meat even after the Daily Mail, of all papers, started stirring the issue. Further on in that article it said that UK MEPs refused to vote for labelling of meat too show the slaughter process, so the proposed European standard on that was dropped. Please get a gun and shoot these idiots now.:thumbdown:


    Zakat tax on Halal meat and products, eg. Warburtons bread is Halal certified, and dozens of your regular purchases are Halal certified, and that certification comes at a very high price!


    Halal certification

    I bought Warburtons bread today and that will be the last time. As for the money flowing from Halal practices going to fund terrorism, nothing surprises me any more. But more evidence is needed on this.

    Muslims and Jews cannot eat pork, ham, bacon, etc., so you can be fairly sure this has been humanely slaughtered. It is sad that animals are raised and slaughtered for food, but if meat production is ever banned, the country will quickly become devoid of all wildlife. Rhinoceros horn and elephant tusks are not needed for food, but too many people are happy to wipe them out of existence.


    I hope I haven't overdone the links, but if you read one or two it may tempt you to do more research.

    I eat meat, but as I said on the threads about synthetic meat, I hope one killing animals for meat stops. As you say though, our countryside would change forever because no farmer is going to raise animals unless there is a profit for them.


    As for the horns, despicable.:cursing: We have a conservation thread here Fidget, love to talk with you about these kinds of subjects in there.


    As for the links, I read all the stuff on all of them apart from the EU one as that one wasn't working. That should tell you what I think about links.;):)

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • This is nothing more than pandering to the PC agenda, the law is the law there should be no exemptions or exceptions to any laws and certainly not on religious grounds.

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • This will unless stopped in its tracks have only one outcome , the islamification of the UK , this is not and never will be an islamic country . The kosher problem also requires stopping but is not a problem on the scale of Halal .

    I know subway pander to Halal , "ham"is actually turkey apparently.

  • This is nothing more than pandering to the PC agenda, the law is the law there should be no exemptions or exceptions to any laws and certainly not on religious grounds.

    This will unless stopped in its tracks have only one outcome , the islamification of the UK , this is not and never will be an islamic country . The kosher problem also requires stopping but is not a problem on the scale of Halal .

    I know subway pander to Halal , "ham"is actually turkey apparently.

    The thing is though as I highlighted in my comments, a law was passed in 1933 allowing all this to happen. Anyone who doesn't allow these religions to eat meat in accordance with their religious beliefs will be in breach of that law.:thumbdown:

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • The Lancashire Council have backed down (for now) and will continue to buy unstunned Halal meat for it's 27 schools.


    Latest news from Jan 18


    As for the serving of Halal and non-Halal in the same establishment .... can you imagine the uproar from Muslims if they suspected it was prepared in the same kitchen? In the Lancashire schools case, they volunteered to offer stunned Halal meat, but even that caused an uproar and unstunned was demanded.


    There are plenty of countries where ritual slaughter is banned, but Muslims and Jews still live there. Likewise, what happens to the first arrivals into a non-Muslim country. They don't leave, or starve to death due to a lack of Halal or Kosher food. Muslims are allowed to eat non-Halal food, if they pray over it before consuming. Much like Christians saying grace.


    This country should never allow religious exemptions. We should all be equal under the law, and laws that affect human or animal welfare should be the absolute priority.


    With regard to the banning of animal meat production, some people would still want 'real' meat, and the most selfish of people would just take it from wherever they could (and probably get very rich in the process). All wildlife, and pets too, would be at great risk.


    Kingsmills, Warburton, Mars, Cadbury, and lots more, all Halal certified. Some have the Halal logo on their packaging, but not all.


    Kellogs was Halal certified, but they have since relinquished certification as they say non-meat products are allowable to Muslims anyway so why do they need to pay for certification.


    Nigel, I suspect you are correct. More and more slaughterhouses are being purchased by Muslims. Enormous amounts of Halal meat is sold to the general public by stealth (and is therefore vastly overproduced) but our politicians turn a blind eye. More and more of our brand name goods are being pressurised into Halal certification.


    I am deeply ashamed of our politicians and their priority of religion over welfare.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Laws can be amended or changed.

    A Lord quoted a 1933 Act in one of the articles Fidget linked to. I've checked and apart from a law about creuelty to dogs, no such law exists.

    This country should never allow religious exemptions. We should all be equal under the law, and laws that affect human or animal welfare should be the absolute priority.

    And that is rut of ALL issues on this subject. One law for one people.


    Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc are not to blame, our uber extreme liberal part of the population is.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • A Lord quoted a 1933 Act in one of the articles Fidget linked to. I've checked and apart from a law about creuelty to dogs, no such law exists.

    And that is rut of ALL issues on this subject. One law for one people.


    Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc are not to blame, our uber extreme liberal part of the population is.

    Agreed. Once again, the majority of people in this country are not informed about the source of their food, and those who object will be ignored and preference given to pressure groups.


    Our gutless and appeasing politicians have a lot to answer for! It is becoming more and more frequent that politicians ride roughshod over the majority in favour of the minority.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Fidget, any idea what that Lord in one of your linked articles is on about when he is talking about a law from 1933?


    If there is no law allowing religions to kill animals as they want, why are we following it??

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • Fidget, any idea what that Lord in one of your linked articles is on about when he is talking about a law from 1933?


    If there is no law allowing religions to kill animals as they want, why are we following it??

    No, I'm not sure. I'll do a bit of digging and if I can't resolve it, I'll ask someone more knowledgeable.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Thanks, because it calls into question all the acquiescence to religious leaders on this issue, if there is no law.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • I've found this ....


    Reference to the Slaughter of Animals Act 1933


    It looks like the objections to inhumane slaughter go back to 1933, and still the politicians do nothing. Even if the politicians are too full of religious appeasement (or too afraid ... what of????) to ban it, why won't they allow labelling of ritually slaughtered meat? It appears they are actually conspiring against non-Muslims and non-Jews by allowing ritually slaughtered meat to be sold by stealth.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Aha - I was looking at laws that were current, which is why I couldn't find the '33 law. Ok, the law got superseded by the Slaughterhouses Act 1974. I'll have a read of that later, then comment then.


    Edit: There has been newer legislation, with the last being in 1991.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • Ok, it is law, from the 1974 Act:








    ====


    So, parliament passed a law and within two paragraphs, essentially destroyed it.:rolleyes:X/


    Those schools, as cited in that article, must follow the law. They have no choice. If taken to court, the Muslim clerics would win.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • ......


    So, parliament passed a law and within two paragraphs, essentially destroyed it.:rolleyes:X/


    Those schools, as cited in that article, must follow the law. They have no choice. If taken to court, the Muslim clerics would win.

    Where, in law, does it say that educational, or other, establishments must provide Halal meals? This is sheer blackmail forcing non-Muslim schools to provide unstunned meat.


    The armed forces have approx 2% Muslims, but all personnel are fed Halal.


    Personally, I think that unless the school is 100% Muslim (and I am pretty sure that all religious schools must take 50% of pupils not from that religion), then Muslims should take packed lunches (or make provision for a separate kitchen), and allow the non-Muslims to comply with the law by eating humanely slaughtered meat.


    I am absolutely fuming and horrified at the way Halal is taking over this country. I cannot bear the thought of so many animals being slaughtered so cruelly. If non-Muslims and non-Jews slaughtered an animal in this way, they would be prosecuted, and quite right too.


    I only hope that the Eid sacrificial festival never arrives in the UK. I will leave the UK if that ever happens.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Where, in law, does it say that educational, or other, establishments must provide Halal meals? This is sheer blackmail forcing non-Muslim schools to provide unstunned meat.

    True, I withdraw that part of my remarks.


    The law only concerns the slaughter of animals, not the provision of how meat is prepared, although perhaps there might be something in the Equality Act. I'll check if I get a chance.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • Why can't the halal or kosher meat be labelled so people can make an informed choice rather than have a one size fits all approach, since non Muslim or non Jewish don't need to eat halal or kosher meat they shouldn't be forced too.

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • I don't know Ron. There have been lots of petitions, and the matter raised in the Commons, but the MP's keep voting against it!


    I suspect money is at the root of the problem. All Halal and Kosher slaughter incurs a religious tax on each animal slaughtered which goes to Jewish and Islamic societies. The Jewish and Islamic societies are well know for their very generous 'donations' to causes supported by MP's, and societies such as the RSPCA, which appears to keep them onside with ritual slaughter, even though it goes against the principles of UK law.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • It isn't just Halal meat, which carries a tax on each and every carcase that goes to Muslim Organisations. The whole food industry is being pressured to get Halal Certification for it's products, which costs £100's of thousands of pounds, and an expensive process of 'proof' and is just another way to make Halal ingredients the only acceptable ones. This is paid (indirectly) by the consumers of those products, but only Muslim organisations benefit from the extra costs. It's pretty much like tariffs on non-EU imports making everything more expensive for all consumers. I check the products I buy for Halal certification, but not all are marked as such.


    Virtually all fast food establishments are now Halal, plus many of our major brands, eh . Anyone would think this was a Muslim country!


    Just to be clear about the requirements of Islam. Food does NOT have to be prepared specifically for Muslims. Muslims can eat any food they wish (other than pork), providing they pray over it before eating. Pretty much like Christians saying grace. They don't want anyone to know that, as Halal food is a big money spinner for Islam.


    Ask yourself this, why do Muslims remain in those countries that have banned Halal slaughter? I am sure some will buy imported Halal meat, but I'll bet the majority don't. How did the first Muslims in the UK survive before our government gave the exemption to our Animal Welfare laws?


    Muslim pressure groups are even demanding Halal certification for cosmetics and pharmaceuticals in the UK now. Still, we all know that Muslims are a 'protected species' in Europe now, and their 'rights' trump our 'rights' everytime.


    ps. It is not racist to criticise what people do. It just so happens that Muslims do a lot of things that affect me, because my 'rights' not to have those things (that Muslims require) forced upon me, no longer exists.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Why can't the halal or kosher meat be labelled so people can make an informed choice rather than have a one size fits all approach, since non Muslim or non Jewish don't need to eat halal or kosher meat they shouldn't be forced too.

    There have been several very successful petitions to get Halal and Kosher meat labelled, but Parliament keeps refusing to legislate for it. The irony is that Halal meat is banned from the Houses of Westminster! One rule for them ....

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I am passionate about animal welfare, and struggle with the thought of any animal being killed for human consumption. That said, I also live in the real world. My only request is that whilst alive all animals should be treated kindly and with respect, and when their day comes their execution should be quick and painless. I believe the vast majority of us agree with this, whilst a minority don't care. I find it strange that slaughter houses have to work to strict guidelines, but under the name of religion an animal can be killed in a dreadful and unimaginable way. Sorry, it's either right, or it's wrong. The good news is that our major supermarkets will only buy Halal meat that comes from animals that have been humanely slaughtered. Yes, an animal can be stunned prior to having it's throat slit, despite what some people may think. Of course, some orthodox Jews and Muslims may prefer the more traditional methods, but should society really tolerate this?

    Don't make me angry

  • The good news is that our major supermarkets will only buy Halal meat that comes from animals that have been humanely slaughtered. Yes, an animal can be stunned prior to having it's throat slit, despite what some people may think.

    Not strictly true. The Halal stun is a partial stun, and scientists have declared that it paralyses the animal but does not render it unconscious. It's similar to being tasered. Muslims will not allow a 'full' stun, as it can kill outright on occasion. I happen to think that is an advantage, but Islam won't accept it. Scientists have also proven that even if killed outright by a full stun, the heart keeps beating for a few minutes so the blood would still drain.


    Cattle suffer the most from ritual slaughter, as they have an additional artery to the brain which is not severed during the throat cut, therefore the brain survives longer, and the shock and the pain too.


    Safest just to eat pork, which is thankfully not subjected to ritual slaughter.


    EDIT: in the compassionate UK, you have to question whether those people (whatever their religion or lifestyle) who refuse to make animal welfare better, and are demanding that animals suffer, even when avoidable, are a good fit for our country. If they cannot live by our laws, the laws that apply to everyone else, then I would say a big fat NO! Those who are willing to live by our laws, and not demand special treatment and exemptions, ARE welcome.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • EDIT: in the compassionate UK, you have to question whether those people (whatever their religion or lifestyle) who refuse to make animal welfare better, and are demanding that animals suffer, even when avoidable, are a good fit for our country. If they cannot live by our laws, the laws that apply to everyone else, then I would say a big fat NO! Those who are willing to live by our laws, and not demand special treatment and exemptions, ARE welcome.

    Strangely enough the people who defend Islam the most, are likely to be those who also claim to have animal welfare at heart. Liberals, hypocrites, the lot of em

    Don't make me angry

  • Strangely enough the people who defend Islam the most, are likely to be those who also claim to have animal welfare at heart. Liberals, hypocrites, the lot of em

    interestingly I also just had a huge row with Fidget, who claims to be a dog 'lover' (ie a supporter of the vandalism and destruction of dog genes and genetic diversity for purely human greed and vanity). I challenged him of how introducing crippling and debilitating and entirely unecessary genetic mutations into dogs 'improved' them, as he claimed. He got very arsey, threw his toys out the pram and I never got a straight answer .

  • interestingly I also just had a huge row with Fidget, who claims to be a dog 'lover' (ie a supporter of the vandalism and destruction of dog genes and genetic diversity for purely human greed and vanity). I challenged him of how introducing crippling and debilitating and entirely unecessary genetic mutations into dogs 'improved' them, as he claimed. He got very arsey, threw his toys out the pram and I never got a straight answer .

    Don't now what has to do with Liberals, but agree with you about dogs. I am a big dog lover, but believe they should all be mongrels as intended

    Don't make me angry

  • Don't now what has to do with Liberals, but agree with you about dogs. I am a big dog lover, but believe they should all be mongrels as intended

    See the thread entitled 'horses'.


    Dogs diversified from wolves, about 140,000 years ago, but also then slowly diversified into natural 'breeds' - you can find paintings of what are hounds and bulldogs made in the 17th century, long before breeding took place, they look a lot different to todays hounds and bulldogs. It was human intervention that caused chaos and damage.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member to leave a comment.