Brexit and EU general chit chat

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  • Our politicians must think they are unnecessary, or less necessary than kowtowing to religious bodies.

    It isn't just our politicians; it's our citizens. It isn't just mindless tolerance, liberalism and political correctness; it's a sanctimonious soft-headed-ness; it's Tom Lehrer's prophetic National Brotherhood Week stretched from just one week to a call for prayer 5 times a day


  • According to the Independent website two different pro EU group's are seeking differing

    court rulings on keeping us in this appalling institution .

    One is in Scotland , surprise , surprise , the other at the high court by ex-pats who can't even be arsed to live here anymore and are upset at the fines given to the vote leave campaigners and think this is reason enough to nullify the referendum vote .Oh well , more lawyer benefits coming up.

  • .... and the senior judges, in the upper/appeal courts, are bound to be remainers, because that way they get expense paid holidays to mainland Europe, meeting to discuss tedious fine points of law with even more senior judges who are on the Strasbourg gravy train

  • According to the Independent website two different pro EU group's are seeking differing

    court rulings on keeping us in this appalling institution .

    One is in Scotland , surprise , surprise , the other at the high court by ex-pats who can't even be arsed to live here anymore and are upset at the fines given to the vote leave campaigners and think this is reason enough to nullify the referendum vote .Oh well , more lawyer benefits coming up.

    We spoke about this last year when Gina Miller won her court case and speculated that there would be more court cases in the future.


    The SNP will use any lever it can to break the UK apart, so I'm not surprised about the Scottish attempts. Of course, these menus are purely under the jurisdiction of Westminster, so Ms Sturgeon can go and jump.


    Surprise about the ex-pats. I don't see why they would be upset about the leave campaign getting fines. But if they think this somehow means the vote leave campaign was corrupt or the ref results was ineligible as a result of this suggested corruption, they can go and jump.

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  • I've often wondered why their has been no court challenge over Heath's and Majors actions of signing various treaties without electoral consent.


    I know we have an unwritten constitution, but I always understood that power could not be passed to a foreign government without electoral consent. Also, they must not tie the hands of any successive government. It seems our politicians have failed on both accounts, and continue to do so.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I always understood that power could not be passed to a foreign government without electoral consent. Also, they must not tie the hands of any successive government. It seems our politicians have failed on both accounts, and continue to do so.

    Have we passed power to a foreign government? I thought we had simply chosen freely to subscribe to the same rues and regulations as other countries in the same club or cartel? Government could always have rebelled, refused to pay a fine and see what happens - other club members were far less subservient and exercised more degrees of freedom.


    Actually, even if in a strictly legal sense you are correct that Britain has relinquished power to a foreign government. is it really without electoral consent when every 5 years we can vote out that government which has acted without our consent and vote for an alternative government that can quash the previous decision (except that such an alternative doesn't exist). Alternatively, if we don't want to wait 5 years we can, with the help of the Gina Millers of this world (aaaarrrgh!), block that a Government decision in the law courts?


    Our constitution (or whatever it's called) gave us the chance to inject some UKIP into the House of Commons to give you and me a voice and maybe tip the balance when the government has a thin majority but our Parliamentary election system is too monolithic to let in any fresh air.


    As for what you call "electoral consent" I honestly don't know what it means in practice. I dread to think it is the implementation of Popular Democracy or Power To The People. Isn't that what has got Britain into the mess it's in?

  • Have you read document FCO 30/1048? It states outright that our government and politicians exceeded their powers. Unfortunately, the disclosure came decades after the event and was again concealed from the public in 2002. Monnet also stated that being membership of the EU was intended to be irreversible, which again goes against the requirement for governments not to bind the hands of subsequent governments. Politicians may have been aware of that statement and intention, but not the general public, at that time.


    If we had widespread use of the internet in the 70's, then it's unlikely that this could have been kept secret for so long.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Have you read document FCO 30/1048? It states outright that our government and politicians exceeded their powers. Unfortunately, the disclosure came decades after the event and was again concealed from the public in 2002. Monnet also stated that being membership of the EU was intended to be irreversible, which again goes against the requirement for governments not to bind the hands of subsequent governments. Politicians may have been aware of that statement and intention, but not the general public, at that time.


    If we had widespread use of the internet in the 70's, then it's unlikely that this could have been kept secret for so long.

    I've waded through the letters and memos appertaining to FCO30 1048 and I don't see anything there which conflicts with my prior view that:


    1) Sovereignty is barely affected either in terms of crown, legality or parliamentary procedure


    2) The binding parts of the agreement or treaty relate to commerce and economics, which certainly does restrict our freedom to make trade deals beyond and outside the agreement we have with the EU


    3) The so-called irreversible contract or agreement simply means that it can be broken but will incur damages or compensations for doing so. The amount of that compensation or damages is as long or short as a ball of string thanks to the predictable fudge of the EU-UK agreement which did not clarify the ambiguities that are customary in agreements that cater to the needs of indecisive politicians and provide judges and lawyers with the assurance of an endless amount of expensive work sorting out the mess which they (unwittingly?) created


    Do you think Donald Trump got rich by spending any time paying heed to stuff like FCO 30/1048?


    Trust me, this sort of stuff isn't what put the Great into Britain.


    PS What came across from several of these memos was the way writers described the general public or electorate as needing their anxieties reduced or removed. Clearly for these government scumbags this was largely an exercise in manipulation. For me the giveaway phrase was about "reducing public anxiety masquerading as sovereignty". The description "masquerading" says it all. They think the electorate have latched onto "sovereignty" as the buzzword and excuse for all their misgivings. These self-styled government elitists (aka scumbags) haven't the faintest interest in heeding the electorate's concerns; it is just an exercise in mass persuasion. They don't even possess the slight scruple of pretending to be concerned with examining the validity of publics misgivings, which are instead treated as just a dungheap of voter resistance to sidestep or assuage with written sleight of hand.

  • Have we passed power to a foreign government? I thought we had simply chosen freely to subscribe to the same rues and regulations as other countries in the same club or cartel?

    Who is the "we" here? Fidget's point is that the electorate never got a say on joining the EEC and it was all cooked up by our lords and masters in parliament.

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  • I've often wondered why their has been no court challenge over Heath's and Majors actions of signing various treaties without electoral consent.


    I know we have an unwritten constitution, but I always understood that power could not be passed to a foreign government without electoral consent. Also, they must not tie the hands of any successive government. It seems our politicians have failed on both accounts, and continue to do so.

    I'm very cautious on arguing politics with you Fidget as you came from a politics forum and are a master of the arts, but we do have a written constitution though really. It's just not codified (all written in one document) and can easily be repealed by parliaments. We've have various statues from the Magna Carta onwards which forms part of our constitution. including the soon to be deceased 1972 European Act.:)


    Sorry, I'm in a pedantic mood today.:P


    And as for why there was no challenges, it's because our lords and masters were quite happy about being in the European superclub, as current events still illustrate.

    Have you read document FCO 30/1048?

    If I get a chance, that'll be my evening reading! Thanks for posting that.

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  • Who is the "we" here? Fidget's point is that the electorate never got a say on joining the EEC and it was all cooked up by our lords and masters in parliament.

    I agree with you. But aren't we also being wise after the event? I'm not sure any of us realised just how awful the EU had become and the direction they were headed. Things like straight bananas added to the gaiety of the Nation and low-voltage lightbulbs were just minor irritants. Also, am I being guilty here of re-writing history when saying that in those days it was easier to trust one's government and be led by them or at least not be violently opposed to what they were proposing. Did any of us imagine that the EU was going to morph into what it has now? We did at least refrain from switching to the Euro and that was not just the public being unsure about it; our politicians can take some credit for that. But these days our view of their competence, intelligence, honesty and intent to think more about what's good for Britain than what's good for themselves has hit an all time low

  • As Fidget pointed out, if the internet had existed then, at least we would have known what "the plan" was. Whether we could've stopped it, is debatable.


    The plan was devised in WW2, as we all know now, and it couldn't have been clearer what the end game was. It was always about the creation of a European superstate to prevent further wars by eliminating nationalism and in effect, eliminating countries. Monnet, Schuman and even Churchill made it perfectly clear at the time what their intent was. Only problem is, everyone was more interested in surviving and finding food to eat, than politics.


    As for straight bananas etc, I'm with the EU on that one! That was all purely to aid trade, so that what went into crates and sent to shops was all the same, but hey, why let Daily Mail headlines get in the way of facts!

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  • haha ... here's an article in the Express. Something that most of us have noticed since June 2016, but now it's got one of those very necessary 'labels', ie. Brexit Anxiety Disorder.


    Obsessed Remainers suffering from extreme psychological disorder


    ... and now the good news ....


    BREXIT ALLIANCE vows to deliver FULL exit... or OUST Theresa May

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • It's all making feel like a bored child on a very long journey sat there saying "Are we there yet?"

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • Just to cheer you up Ron and I know I keep repeating this, but we will leave the EU next March. That is now our law.


    While we're still neck deep in manure aka the negotiations with the EU, it can be easy to forget that no matter what happens, we will leave the EU next year.


    haha ... here's an article in the Express. Something that most of us have noticed since June 2016, but now it's got one of those very necessary 'labels', ie. Brexit Anxiety Disorder.


    Obsessed Remainers suffering from extreme psychological disorder

    ... and now the good news ....


    BREXIT ALLIANCE vows to deliver FULL exit... or OUST Theresa May

    I'll come back to this later, as I'm just about to sort out dinner.


    The Brexit Alliance. Sounds like something from Star Wars!^^

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  • ... and now the good news ....


    BREXIT ALLIANCE vows to deliver FULL exit... or OUST Theresa May

    This group is separate from Farage's and separate again from Reese-Mogg's. What's wrong with them all, why don't they work together?


    To be honest, considering the track record of Brexit so far, I don't believe any of these groups could organise a piss up in the brewery if they tried. Anyway, it won't be campaign groups outside of Westminster this Autumn where the action will be, but inside.

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  • Did you read the link I posted? Here is a quote from it: "The Brexit Advance Coalition will unite 10 organisations including several with close links to the Conservative Party".


    It isn't 'new' separate groups, it is existing groups coming together to campaign for a full Brexit. They are working together.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I did read it, yes.


    Although this new alliance plans to work with Farage's and Reese-Mogg's groups, they are still separate from each other. So there will still be three Brexit campaign groups out there.


    Talking about spreading the gruel thinly.

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  • If this alliance are truly singing from the same hymn book, that's hardly thin gruel. There is so much scope to become united against this common hazard.

  • Yesterday was a bizarre one , Mr Rees Mogg attacks the chequers paper , Mr Raab comes out with fairly obvious advice and then Mr remainer Hammond goes and says how awful no deal would be , Then Mr Rees Mogg lays into Hammond big time , and Mr Johnson is planning something ,can't wait for the conference.

  • Me too. I only hope the Brexiters get as much publicity as the Remainers.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Yesterday was a bizarre one , Mr Rees Mogg attacks the chequers paper , Mr Raab comes out with fairly obvious advice and then Mr remainer Hammond goes and says how awful no deal would be , Then Mr Rees Mogg lays into Hammond big time , and Mr Johnson is planning something ,can't wait for the conference.

    But, they should've have had their civil war ages ago. Well, in a way, they did... they elected Mrs May.:(


    I saw Reese-Mogg on Newsnight last night laying into the Chequers plan. If there are 100 or more MPs willing to vote against May and her Brexit plan, then she's finished. But we really don't have the time now to sort all this out.


    As well as Mrs May going, I look forward to smug Phil getting the boot too.

    Me too. I only hope the Brexiters get as much publicity as the Remainers.

    Even on the Beeb, the Brexiteers get a lot of coverage especially JR-M, so I don't have a problem with the broadcasters.


    Anyway, just wait until Boris starts, then ALL the news will ALL be about him. Call it The Boris Show. (sounds like a good name for a new thread!:))

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  • Hammond says how awful no deal would be , Mr Rees Mogg lays into Hammond big time


    Hammond predicts there will be £150 billion less money in the UK kitty in 15 years time? I don't understand the fuss. hat's peanuts. Just an HS2, a new runway and maybe a handful of planes to decorate our shiny new Heath Robinson aircraft carrier.


    Also, even a cowardly deadhead prime minister like Theresa May should have the sense to just fire Philip Hammond immediately for opening his malignant mouth to say such a thing at such a time. To be replaced by whom? Plenty of choices. Anyone would be an improvement of Death's Head at a Feast.

  • I like Raab, as I said in the EU Withdrawal Bill thread, but am very disappointed with him staying with May.


    He's very competent and tough and doesn't showboat, or at least he hasn't so far.


    Boris will be all about Boris. And although I am warming to Reese-Mogg, that warming is only tepid. Davis is an idiot for being led down a garden path as May brought out the real Brexit plan without his knowledge. So, he's no good.


    As long as we have a Brexiteer leading things, then I'll even tolerant a lazy, self absorbed blonde buffoon. Can't think who I might be talking about.:whistling:

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  • Theresa May should have the sense to just fire Philip Hammond immediately

    Loose cannons tend to go overboard. Pity this one is still on the deck.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

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  • Just an aside .... when will Remainers get it into their thick skulls that 'no deal' does NOT mean a total cessation of trade with the EU, it just means reverting to WTO trade!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Just an aside .... when will Remainers get it into their thick skulls that 'no deal' does NOT mean a total cessation of trade with the EU, it just means reverting to WTO trade!

    Many Remainers on radio today , all of them are obsessed with the money side , do they not care about political freedom and self determination?

  • Many Remainers on radio today , all of them are obsessed with the money side , do they not care about political freedom and self determination?

    Obviously not. Ironically, I believe that we will be better off, once the dust settles. The EU appear to also believe that we will be better off, as they are determined to prevent us getting a 'competitive advantage'. It seems to pass over Remainers heads the reasons why the EU are being so difficult.


    Remainers are scared little pussy cats who are frightened of change, and cannot use plain logic. I can understand that those who trade with the EU are worried about losing the taxpayer funded 'free trade' which costs more than the tariffs saved and a whole lot of other baggage besides, but we can change this and make it fairer for ALL businesses, especially those who trade outside the EU.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Many Remainers on radio today , all of them are obsessed with the money side , do they not care about political freedom and self determination?

    And talking of money, there is that 40 billion pounds or whatever it is that the EU will lose from us, if they don't do a deal. And yet you'd think from our present PM and government, we're in a weak situation.


    I just hope we have someone soon who will play our cards right and get the brucie bonus, ie full leaving the EU and a comprehensive deal to boot.

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