Brexit and EU general chit chat

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  • I teach, but I also wanted to work as an export checker on the side.

    You know, that guy at the dock's who checks that the goods are what they say they are before payment is made.


    There is just so many job offers for me in China. It's easy and close to Japan where I'd like to retire.

    I don't want to just teach. China is the land of opportunity.


    The plan is to end up in Japan, but at that time, the Chinese prospects were looking like fun and exciting.

    I'd like to take a lot of money with me to Japan. Soften the culture shock.

  • I would have thought baff, that there should be plenty of jobs for people in your line of work coming up with Brexit happening (perhaps...) But if not, then go where you get the best deal for yourself. Although, perhaps it might be wise to wait and see how the trade tensions between China and America play out first.


    Come to mention it, I don't think I have seen any jobs for lots more UK customs/border officials yet.

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  • There is always plenty of teaching jobs.

    I tend to only take the plum ones these days.


    My job opportunity as export controller in China has since past.

    China will fold to America is my bet. And soon.



    They have announced the budget for more customs officials. No idea where they advertise those jobs however.



  • I know they announced the budget, but 29th March 2019 is not that far away and people need to start being trained up. Almost makes you think they're not bothering to recruit because they (the government) know something, we don't.


    Interesting remark about China there. We have a thread somewhere here about the trade tensions between China and America, so I might pick your brains on this subject more in the future, as you're in a position to judge this things.

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  • I don't think there is a lot of training required.

    Customs deals with international trade currently.

    There are no new systems required. Plenty of staff already doing the job.


    Maybe some extra staff at Calais to cope with the greater numbers of goods that will be tariffable.


    All these problems are "no problems" to anyone with a can do mentality.

    You have to actively want to fail at these things before you will be able to.

  • Actually I prefer WW3 to EU membership.


    So keep it if you like, but don't expect a peaceful and stable country if you do.

    You mean a peaceful and stable country like ours?!

  • All these problems are "no problems" to anyone with a can do mentality.

    You have to actively want to fail at these things before you will be able to.

    Excellent summing of the problem and solution


    It would make a good recruitment poster headline for emigrating to the US .... if only they would let me in

  • You mean a peaceful and stable country like ours?!

    Strong and Stable. Strong and Stable. Lets all sing along.:P


    Seriously, I do think the country is in fine shape overall, it's just the present government and specifically our prime minister who is not strong and stable, despite her slogans to the contrary.

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  • Excellent summing of the problem and solution


    It would make a good recruitment poster headline for emigrating to the US .... if only they would let me in

    You'd drive them round the bend, before you even set foot on their shores,:P in fact Trump would probably put you in one of those detention facilities. At least you can spell detention, unlike him.^^ And I agree, it was a excellent summing up.

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  • Seriously, I do think the country is in fine shape overall, it's just the present government and specifically our prime minister who is not strong and stable, despite her slogans to the contrary.

    You're right, we're in fine shape, Theresa May and her merry men are just a small impediment but nothing that can't be put right with a straightjacket and mouth gag, coupled with the no-nonsense decisiveness of Tory MP's, the easy-going charm and largesse of DUP and the wisdom of the crowd (aka the electorate)

  • Theresa May has said she is prepared to "explore every possible option" to break the deadlock in Brexit talks.

    She told MPs 95% of the terms of exit were agreed but the Irish border was still a "considerable sticking point".

    While willing to consider extending the UK's transition period beyond 2020, she said this was "undesirable" and would have to end "well before" May 2022.

    Only just caught this on the news last night and by all accounts, the Commons got very heated. I'll try and see it on catch-up later if I get the chance.


    I say one thing with May, she is dogged in her determination to stay the course, come what may (excuse the pun).

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  • I get the impression that the EU can no longer be bothered negotiating with Theresa May or Dominic Raab or anyone in our Government because there is no empowerment, authority or leadership influence to agree a deal when it has to get through:


    1) the squabbling gauntlet of the House of Commons, who were once public servants but are now servants to their own need for power or job security or to bask in the spotlight of the media


    2) the doddering gauntlet of the House of Lords


    3) the legal pedantry and relentless (pseudo) objectivity of their eminences in High Court or Court of Appeal, who are always delighted to lunch or dine in Strasbourg with their European peer group


    4) the Popular Democracy of the slogan-toting electorate who want to "have their say" about various British deals which they are no more able to get to mental; grips with than Theresa May


    I think the EU is wondering if Britain has finally taken complete leave of its senses


    Horizon's kind observation about Theresa May's doggedness brings to mind the remark that the person has no redeeming defects. Or as Winston Churchill once said about Baldwin "decided to be undecided, resolved to be resolutei, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all powerful to be impotent"

  • I'm just half watching the coverage from the European parliament this morning. Tusk gave his report about the negotiations last week and the parliament is not happy with us, as they think we're stalling. A DUP MEP just reminded them that the UK will not be broken up with a border down the Irish sea.


    They're all united in their stupidity.

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  • A little bit off topic, but the events happening in Italy, and Brexit itself, should cause a few people to rethink the ever constant claim that the EU doesn't really affect their lives, or the sovereignty of their country.


    Here's an interesting article from a German MEP:

    German MEP says Remainers are becoming BREXITEERS

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Thanks for that link Fidget. I'll pick up on the story later, probably in the European Democracy thread. I don't think we have a thread yet on Italy and probably won't now after the EU takeover of the country!

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  • I'm sure the German MEP who says remainers are becoming Leavers is correct. I'm also sure there is more than just a single reason for this change of heart or mind. I'm also sure leavers are becoming remainers, again for more than just a single reason.


    I'm also sure none of us has a way of knowing which switch has greater numerical weight. In other words, will the net result be to strengthen the Leaver vote or strengthen the Remain vote? At it's simplest the conflict could be about pride versus fear.


    It's such a shame that we can't quantify the degree of switch between the previous referendum vote and the intended referendum vote (among those who are willing to vote a second time). There is no reliable market research technique that can reliably assess that switch. If we did a huge survey and asked people which way they voted last time (leave or remain) and which they intend to vote next time, we wouldn't know whether they were lying about both, or lying about their previous vote or lying about their intended next vote.


    There are so many reasons for people to deceive the researchers (or themselves). There are 4 combinations of votes for referendum 1 versus Referendum 2:


    1 Vote to Leave both times

    2 Vote to Remain both times

    3 Vote to Leave in Ref 1, changed to a vote to Remain in Ref 2

    4 Vote to Remain in Ref 1, changed to a vote to Leave in Ref 2


    There are credible or plausible reasons (rational or emotional) for each of these 4 voting sequences. So far so good. I'm sure research private research has examined that in all its maddening detail. But it's when we try and use research to forecast the switch that we come unstuck. We do a survey that asks people how they voted in Ref 1 and how they intend to vote in Ref 2 and there are 3 ways they could lie to the interviewer (or questionnaire). (Why 3, not 4?. Because one of the 4 combinations would be where they told the truth about their vote in the first referendum and will do what they said they would do in the second referendum)


    Each of those lies would have a plausible reason, whether based on post-rationalisation or emotion. For instance, reasons for lying will include a desire to display consistency, or conceal a previous vote that has turned out to be naive or gullible, or a wish to avoid seeming to be wise after the event, or an unwillingness to admit to being influenced by a recent change in tide of opinion ...... the list of reasons for switching are considerable and the list of lying about previous versus intended vote is even longer.


    One of the greatest factors that might affect the switch from referendum 1 to referendum 2 is how the voter resolves their conflict between a sense of idealism of independence, nationhood, sovereignty and an underlying dread that, in the economics of globalisation, these ideals might fail to convert into putting the Great back into Britain and instead cause a diminished prosperity and social cohesion.


    Psychologically I fear Brexiteers have painted themselves into a corner where to switch their vote to Remain would have the stigma of national capitulation and carry with it a hatred towards the EU which will make for a distinctly uneasy relationship. This is already in evidence in Brexiteers' increased hostility towards the EU for rejecting UK proposals that, truth be told, were vague, flawed or hopelessly contrary to the EU's fundamental ideals. Britain resented the way the EU brushed aside these proposals. What we don't choose to consider is what the EU feels about the presumptuous arrogant way the UK has presented its proposals, as an assumed right, followed by amazed consternation and resentment that such proposals are not viewed by the EU as a Royal Decree that must be acceded to.


    The process by which this morphs into deep-seated resentment and hostility is sometimes known as a "Reaction Formation" (which sometimes becomes a character trait eg jingoism, Little Englander, Xenophobia) but in any event takes the form of excessively irrational attitudes and behaviour in the opposite direction or impulse that is being repressed. It's a form of psychological self-defence. It's a bit like "the lady doth protest too much"


    I apologise in advance if this is one of the most mind-numbing posts you've ever read. I started off just wanting to rebalance the Brexit-biased selective discovery by one German MEP that he thinks Remainers are becoming Brexiteers. Of course, with me I suppose it was bound to grow from there

  • As soon as the UK voted to leave the EU, it sent a shock-wave through the corridors of Brussels and then they've been in bunker mentality ever since. Unfortunately, with our current PM, I don't see how they could possibly view us as being arrogant. Up until now, we have been totally timid, but a divorce is a divorce. It would never go easily.


    As to the gist of the argument, about voters switching sides, or wanting to, I simply don't accept that. It's not what I'm seeing in my area and I believe that is the same nationwide.


    The only reason Brexiteers may fear being painted into a corner, is because our wishes and democratic vote, has not yet been implemented, two years after we voted.


    As I said before and Andrew Neil really did sum it up well last year, we have lived and overall enjoyed living in a liberal world since WW2. But now we and many other countries are choosing to go down a different path. Perhaps that maybe xenophobic, we all like what we are moist comfortable with. That is not wrong, just human nature.


    When Britons got to have a say in how our country is shaped, especially by immigration, we decisively chose to move away from the liberal way of doing things and obviously, the liberals don't like it. As Neil put it, they've got their way for the last 70 years and its a shock to find out you're not getting your own way now. Hence all the "resistance" and rubbish about the country being divided.


    There is no indecisiveness among us overall, that's just media spin. We know what we voted for and are still waiting for that to happen.

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  • Except of course being thick and stupid knuckle draggers without ology degrees from a jumped up polytechnic makes us incompetent and not worthy of being taken seriously.

  • A report in the Telegraph today says Germany will have to stump up another €13.2 billion pounds a year into the EU coffers after Brexit, I expect the fireworks to be very , very loud and spectacular and will look forward to watching from afar.

  • A report in the Telegraph today says Germany will have to stump up another €13.2 billion pounds a year into the EU coffers after Brexit, I expect the fireworks to be very , very loud and spectacular and will look forward to watching from afar.

    I think that's quite fair, actually, but I doubt Germans will agree. Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the Euro, and that comes at the expense of the smaller economies. Germany should share it's huge advantage. After all, the EU reckons it's aim is to raise the economies of all members, not just Germany.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I think that's quite fair, actually, but I doubt Germans will agree. Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the Euro, and that comes at the expense of the smaller economies. Germany should share it's huge advantage. After all, the EU reckons it's aim is to raise the economies of all members, not just Germany.

    I agree with you , as for the Germans already furious over immigration however, i think the brown stuff may really , really hit the fan.

  • With the rise of AfD in Germany, any German government that approved substantial increases to the EU budget would be shooting itself in the head. And we all know from German history, what happens when their economy takes a serious tumble.... As said, the EU was meant to be about benefiting all its members, not just one.

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  • With the rise of AfD in Germany, any German government that approved substantial increases to the EU budget would be shooting itself in the head. And we all know from German history, what happens when their economy takes a serious tumble.... As said, the EU was meant to be about benefiting all its members, not just one.

    Interesting times ahead. :)


    EDIT: There is still a big problem with Deutsche Bank. I wonder if they'll be forced to conduct a 'bail-in', as was forced on Cypress? Haha .. I jest, of course!


    Deutsche Bank shares slide 5% as third-quarter profits slump

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Up until seven ish months ago, it was something I was watching very closely, as in another walk of life, I sometimes trade on the markets.


    The problem with DB, as well as falling profits, is all the "hidden" stuff like debt they've taken on. It will explode and our stockmarket is already going down, so expect a "Big Bang" at some point. Again, worst possible timing for us.

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  • Horizon ends his response to my post by saying “there is no indecisiveness among us overall, that's just media spin. We know what we voted for and are still waiting for that to happen” I can’t help wondering who are the “we” to which he referring. And when he says “there is no indecisiveness among us”, unless I’ve been transported to Alice in Wonderland or at a Ku Klux Klan meeting in Tennessee in the 1950’s I’m pretty sure a near 50-50 split in the last referendum is more than a slight hint of indecisiveness.


    Even though I’m sure there are several shades of grey in this debate I’m beginning to suspect that Forum Box is very Brexit-slanted, at a guess I’d venture 80-20. This means I’m banging my head against a brick wall in trying to encourage Brexiteers to recognise the EU viewpoint. The art of making a deal depends greatly on understanding the other side’s perspective rather than just being wrapped up in one's own feelings. Without that understanding there is a lack of rapport and in its place a hostility that puts the kibosh on reaching an equitable deal. From everything I have read or listened to in British and European media, and among European friends and clients, I sense most of the hostility emanates from Britain rather than the EU (the exception being those member states who have veered to the right and are in a breakaway mood).


    I think it’s sadly funny that Horizon cannot imagine why the EU might find us arrogant or presumptuous and he reinforces that denial by citing the stance of Theresa May. This is like using a harmless monkey to take the blame for an antagonistic organ grinder. The EU is well exposed to the British media in all its rabble-rousing glory.


    “Timid” in our negotiations? You have got to be joking! I think this country was unimaginably stupid to keep presenting a succession of proposals oozing with confidence that any or all of them would be a slam dunk winner. The so-called proposals were rightly rejected as half-baked or too vague. Talk about pride before the fall! Not until well past the 11th hour did the UK ask if the EU could suggest any better ideas for how Britain could achieve the stated objectives in its Lancaster House speech. Up until then the UK behaved like someone entering a restaurant and instead of looking at the menu just telling the maitre d’ what dishes they want to be served. It is hard to take such people seriously. Many restaurants tolerate such arrogance if it’s a filthy rich Arab who is capable of buying the whole restaurant as an impulse purchase. Arrogance is easier to exercise if fuelled by power or money. Without sufficient power or money Britain’s arrogance becomes pathetic.


    Horizon is right that divorce doesn’t end easily but for him to qualify that with “never” is to accept that antagonismis inevitable in divorce, which of course makes it self-fulfilling. Think for a moment about a married couple who want to split up amicably or at least in a civilised way, keeping their respective grudges in check. Why does it eventually deteriorate into an ugly battle? It is the arrival of lawyers on each side, who see the divorce as quintessentially adversarial. In the case of UK vs EU, for “lawyers” read “politicians”. Think what a difference might have been achieved by using independent mediators. After all, it’s not as if either the EU or the UK were being unfaithful or having an affair. It was just a marriage where their respective ambitions eventually headed in different directions but where there could still be common ground, not least for the children’s sake (children = citizens).


    There is another part of me which feels that beneath the EU's mask of cordiality there is malign intent and that our hostility might be justified. I just wish we could have performed better in our EU negotiations and been more united within the population and within parliament on what we wanted. Because make no mistake, there is a widespread view across the globe that Britain has behaved like a complete bunch of schmucks.


    As for my suggestion of voters switching sides, Horizon says “I simply don’t accept that”. Why? Because he isn’t “seeing it in his area” and “believes that is the same nationwide”. I never suggested in what numbers there could be a switching of sides, only that it could reinforce or reverse the Brexit vote which was perched on a very thin majority. This is an example of what I mean about the close-mindedness of Brexiteers. It is also what I mean about a “Reaction Formation”.


    People don’t get painted into a corner, they paint themselves into a corner. Moreover, almost by definition, in doing so they lose credibility. I sympathise, agree and share Horizon’s angry frustration that the Referendum vote is being thwarted by the incompetence or deliberate betrayal by the political classes, ie our elected so-called representatives.


    Perhaps I’ve misunderstood Horizon when he says that we like what we are most comfortable with and, if that includes xenophobia, it’s not wrong, it’s just human nature. I think Horizon might want to look for an alternative word. I’ve googled “in defence of xenophobia” or “justifying xenophobia” and I can’t find anything. True, it can be ascribed to “human nature” but so can paedophilia, rape and the rest of the deadly sins. I’m sure there are devout Islamists who can stone to death their disobedient wife because they feel comfortable about it and believe it is part of human nature (my wife feels relatively safe because there aren’t enough rocks in our garden).


    Actually I think Horizon is doing his argument an injustice. I don’t know about the rest of you but I don’t want to live in the country of my birth if it is overloaded with immigrants who are here for the sole purpose of benefits freeloading and maintaining a ghetto life style with no inclination or effort to assimilate or respect my country’s customs and values. Nor do I want to be surrounded by creatures in burkas or Romanian gypsies begging me for money and somehow suggesting they will put a curse on me if I decline, or being woken up by the call for prayer 5 times a day, or hearing a car go by with its radio filling the whole street with rap music, or feeling unsafe walking home at night without being robbed and knifed. Anyone who thinks these hazards are uncorrelated with nationality, race or religion are living in cloud cuckoo land. Yet I don’t see any of that as Xenophobia. I see it as cosmopolitanism and cultural exchange having got out of control as a result of government incompetence, political correctness, misguided tolerance and neo-liberal fascism. The consequence is a Reaction Formation which takes its shape in Xenophobia.

  • Horizon ends his response to my post by saying “there is no indecisivenessamong us overall, that's just media spin. We know what we voted for and arestill waiting for that to happen” I can’t help wondering who are the “we” to which hereferring. And when he says “there is noindecisiveness among us”, unless I’ve been transported to Alice in Wonderlandor at a Ku Klux Klan meeting in Tennessee in the 1950’s I’m pretty sure a near50-50 split in the last referendum is more than a slight hint of indecisiveness.

    There is no indecisiveness among our people, the only reason the referendum result was like it was was due to mostly London, with the largest population, voting a different way to the rest of England. And of course, London is now majority foreign, with more people in London from overseas than those born here.

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  • I think the EU is wondering if Britain has finally taken complete leave of its senses

    Or, they're rejoicing that things have all been going their way.

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  • There is no indecisiveness among our people, the only reason the referendum result was like it was was due to mostly London, with the largest population, voting a different way to the rest of England. And of course, London is now majority foreign, with more people in London from overseas than those born here.

    Fair point about London, which was only 40% in favour of Leave, compared with the whole of the UK being 52% Leave

    But if you leave out London and re-calculate the percentage, it's 53% in favour of Leave

    So that hardly rebuts my point that it's a near 50-50 split

    Even if you completely load the dice and leave out London, Scotland and Northern Ireland (the only 3 regions where Leave is below 50%) you still get just 55% Leave.

    So it is clearly evident that the UK is divided on whether to Leave or Remain across all but the 2 "foreign" regions of London and Scotland.

  • Or, they're rejoicing that things have all been going their way.

    If you mean that the EU never wanted the UK to Remain within the EU, yes, I too always suspected that. I think the more we crawled, the more they sneered. Britain just doesn't know how to do "cool"

  • one thing i want to mention is reamnders say that theirs 50,000 people that gained the wright to vote since the brexit referendum.


    yeah but millions of people have come voting age since we joined the EU. i don't see them preaching that