Should transgender rights be expanded or curbed?

  • Ministers put curbs on trans rights

    Groups that exclude self-identifying women from female-only sites are to be protected

    Ministers have vowed to defend women’s rights to exclude transgender people from female-only spaces such as changing rooms, lavatories and swimming sessions.

    In a significant victory for campaigners, the government has promised not to put the rights of those who identify as women ahead of those who are biologically female. Its intervention comes in the wake of a series of clashes that have come to light in the year since the government floated proposals to allow adults to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis.

    This was just being discussed on Sky News and the pundits were horrified that transgender people could be excluded from sites where they want to go to, but if you are a lady in a female changing area, would you be comfortable changing in front of a transgender woman who looks like a man?


    I must admit and state my complete ignorance on the issue of transgender people and transgender rights. If someone is not comfortable in their "own skin" that must be horrifying, but I don't understand how someone knows that they are transgender? Could they not simply be gay? How do they know the difference?


    There's been lots of controversy in schools recently with schools coming under pressure to recognise children that are transgender, but the flip side to that is, how do you tell a little boy that "his" friend is not a boy, but a girl, when "he" looks like a boy? It's a total minefield.


    The government is to announce a consultation on the forthcoming Gender Recognition Act, but as this recent Guardian article says, the issue is very controversial, how can it ever be reconciled?


    The Times article goes on to talk about a lady who requested a female nurse to give her a cervical smear and the nurse who did it had stubble. Another example was of a lady with a fear of men was locked up in a psychiatric unit with a 6ft burly transgender person.

    In a tolerant society, we want to be understanding of those who maybe different from the majority, but how far does this tolerance go in regards to the rights of transgender people?

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  • You cannot change your biological sex, no matter how much you want to.


    Many girls want to be boys when young (I know this from experience), and no doubt some boys want to be girls. It isn't a 'sex' thing at all, but the expectations put upon girls and boys. Girls do this, and boys do that. This pre-conditioning is being gradually watered down, and good for that.


    Nobody can change their biological sex though. Be a girl who plays rugby, or be a boy that wears make up and stilletto heels, but stop the farce that they can actually become the opposite sex. Genetically, they cannot be changed, and the massive use of surgery and drugs, both of which bring unnecessary risks, is just 'window shopping'.


    It's already causing problems down the line, where men who have had sex changes want to compete in womens sports. That's ok if it is just a social game, but not when it's the olympics or the equivalent. Drug use in sport has shown that some people will stop at nothing to win. Also, there are the attention seekers who will do literally anything for 5 minutes of fame.


    I am 100% against men being legally designated as women, and women being legally designated as men. It may solve the problem for one set of people, but it introduces a whole lot of problems for other people.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • You cannot change your biological sex, no matter how much you want to.

    But the transgender people say it's not that they want to change to a different sex, but they are a different sex. This is a total minefield.

    This pre-conditioning is being gradually watered down, and good for that.

    I agree, but one's gender is more than just whether you wear skirts or trousers. It's already been proven that different hormones, or at least different levels of hormones, are in men and women and these play a massive part in gender.

    It's already causing problems down the line, where men who have had sex changes want to compete in womens sports. That's ok if it is just a social game, but not when it's the olympics or the equivalent. Drug use in sport has shown that some people will stop at nothing to win. Also, there are the attention seekers who will do literally anything for 5 minutes of fame.


    I am 100% against men being legally designated as women, and women being legally designated as men. It may solve the problem for one set of people, but it introduces a whole lot of problems for other people.

    I think to allow a transgender "female" into a ladies changing area is unacceptable. But perhaps there needs to be additional changing facilities for trans people. If someone is still physically a man, even after a operation, they should not be allowed to compete against women. Seems wholly unfair, as well as inappropriate.

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  • But the transgender people say it's not that they want to change to a different sex, but they are a different sex. This is a total minefield.

    Saying is one thing. Being is another. I could say I'm a dog, when I'm not.


    We already have loonies claiming they are black, a dog, and who knows what else.


    Clinical lycanthropy is defined as a rare psychiatric syndrome, where people think they are dogs, or becoming dogs. Maybe psychiatric syndromes are not as rare as we think!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Biological sex and gender are different though, whether people understand it or not these people do exist. Not sure what the answer is. Maybe it's time to scrap changing rooms or toilets based on sex and have individual units. Saw this at a large local restaurant recently.

  • Saying is one thing. Being is another. I could say I'm a dog, when I'm not.


    We already have loonies claiming they are black, a dog, and who knows what else.


    Clinical lycanthropy is defined as a rare psychiatric syndrome, where people think they are dogs, or becoming dogs. Maybe psychiatric syndromes are not as rare as we think!

    I don't claim to understand all this Fidget, but if a little boy says he is a girl and is trapped in the wrong body, I would be very, very careful before I would label him as gay. Especially at such a young age where sexuality and urges don't kick in until adolescence.
    Same as with little girls. You can have girls who are tomboys, but are still very much female. But if a little girl says she doesn't think like a girl, who are we to say she s wrong, lying, mad or is gay?

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  • Many girls are tomboys, and are not a bit female. Many boys are effeminate and are nothing like the stereotypical boy. It definitely does not mean they are homosexual. Most of them will 'grow out of it'. Nothing has really changed. It has always been this way, but now it is possible for them to have a surgical sex change and drugs for life. Whether the risks and costs are worth it, I doubt it personally, but then I don't have personal experience of a sex change.


    I do think many people (and children) have identity problems, encouraged by the LGBT community, and it won't necessarily be solved by allowing children to make such a huge decision that is irreversible, and will stay with them for their lifetime.


    It's different with adults who are aware of the long term consequences, but this is so very wrong for children.


    That's my take on it.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Have you noticed that once a person reinvents their physical identity, it is straight off the starting block seeking admission to areas where it doesn't truly belong, except as a hybrid that makes the occupants of that segment uncomfortable and undermines the authenticity of those who have an un-tampered-with sex identity, Worse still, they are crazy mixed-up self-absorbed, bandwagon-ing attention-seekers who would like to imagine they have found a place in society where they feel comfortable about themselves. I suppose even mutants want to be accepted!


    For the newly emerged teenage mutant, clearly its biggest handicap was its stupid, weak, pathetically-permissive parents


    If they want to spend time out of their home, I'm sure the newly-flush NHS can fit them up with colostomy bags

  • You cannot change your biological sex, no matter how much you want to.


    Genetically, they cannot be changed, and the massive use of surgery and drugs, both of which bring unnecessary risks, is just 'window shopping'.


    It's already causing problems down the line, where men who have had sex changes want to compete in womens sports. Also, there are the attention seekers who will do literally anything for 5 minutes of fame.


    Perhaps there needs to be additional changing facilities for trans people.

    "Perhaps" opens a can of worms or, to be precise, a can of c-elegans, whose sex identity is anomalous rather than amorous, which makes them useful for lab study and experiments. That's the only facility I would offer to trans people, which is to be the object of study.


    Maybe there is a distinction between those who choose a new sex identity ("window shopping" as FIDGET so aptly puts it) or have an altered state thrust upon them. Maybe not. Either way, they are a handicap both to themselves and to normal society (way beyond any sensible cut-off point along this normal curve). The familiar objection rears its ugly or not-pretty-enough head, which is: where do we draw the line? The definition of the problem is straight forward enough: the right to sex privacy in those public places where there is sex segregation where, as a matter of tradition and decency, both sexes accept such segregation (lavatories, changing rooms and any other agreed designated areas). I don't see this as a thin-end-of-the-wedge argument. For the purpose of sex privacy (and so much else, including maternal and matrimonial issues), sex is a binary attribute. Once it is turned into a variable, the lunatics take over the asylum. How about trans people who are schizophrenic (but harmless enough not be sectioned), where some days they are male, other days they are female. Do we let them roam at will, or inclination, or high tide, between male and female lavatories and changing rooms?


    I'm a terrible golfer. To qualify for a handicap it's <37 over par for women and <29 for men. I could just about make <37. If only I was a transgender I could qualify for a handicap. But it would cost me a fortune in depilatories.

  • My wife had a transgender woman working for her. Quite a bit more than just an effeminate man.

  • Maybe it's time to scrap changing rooms or toilets based on sex and have individual units. Saw this at a large local restaurant recently.

    Maybe also individual restaurants, individual train carriages, individual aeroplane seating cabins, individual swimming pools, individual hotels (at the very least individual room categories) ..... I mean, let's be fair and thorough and not overlook anyone.


    Two years ago a government questionnaire contained 27 gender types. Since then the list of types has increased.

    wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender


    I'm sure we can group some of them. With any luck we'll only need about 10 different social/physical space/quarantining categories. Well, maybe 20 if each has a separate subcategory of accessibility for the physically disabled.



  • No, the restaurant I went to seemed fine as a model. The rules for disability access are not onerous, we could probably use it as a model. However until people change their attitudes nothing will happen, it's only recently people accepted that the physically disabled should be allowed equal access to the world.

  • the rules for disability access are not onerous, ...... it's only recently people accepted that the physically disabled should be allowed equal access to the world.

    Do you really think that's good parallel? To put it another way, do you see a parallel between "mum/dad, I think I can only become a whole person comfortable in my skin once I've changed my sex" versus "mum/dad, I'm thinking of becoming a cripple because those wheelchair ramps are fun and I like a big loo"


    I guess the point I'm making here is that I don't think society should put itself out for a bunch of crazy mixed up kids, self-made deviants or tossers.

  • How about the parallel with paedophelia? They say it's inbuilt, ie. a mental aberration, and not a 'learned' deviation. What's the difference between that aberration, and one where a man thinks they are really a woman, and vice versa?


    EDIT: I should maybe make it clear that I don't necessarily think transgenders are dangerous, although some will be, just as some ordinary hetero's are dangerous. However, I don't think we should be spending NHS money on sex changes and drugs for life. If they want to live as a man, or a woman, then ok, it isn't really a problem unless they think it gives men access to women's changing rooms, etc. It gives too much opportunity for voyeurism (or worse) by people pretending to be transgenders.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Surprised you think there's little difference between adults making a personal decision and chil

    Do you really think that's good parallel? To put it another way, do you see a parallel between "mum/dad, I think I can only become a whole person comfortable in my skin once I've changed my sex" versus "mum/dad, I'm thinking of becoming a cripple because those wheelchair ramps are fun and I like a big loo"


    I guess the point I'm making here is that I don't think society should put itself out for a bunch of crazy mixed up kids, self-made deviants or tossers.

    Same here.

  • How about the parallel with paedophelia? They say it's inbuilt, ie. a mental aberration, and not a 'learned' deviation. What's the difference between that aberration, and one where a man thinks they are really a woman, and vice versa?

    Why do think children being abused is the same as adults making a personal decision? That's slightly concerning to hear.

  • Why do think children being abused is the same as adults making a personal decision? That's slightly concerning to hear.

    Is it a personal decision? They say they 'are' the opposite sex, not that they decided to be the opposite sex.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Different gender to biological sex so want to change their body to suit. How's that the same as wanting to rape children?

    FGS. I never said it was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's stick to what was said, instead of what you think was said.


    I said it's a mental aberration. Paedophiles don't 'choose' to be attracted to children. I think the same is true of transgenders. They don't 'choose' to be the opposite sex. They think they are the opposite sex, stuck in the wrong body.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • FGS. I never said it was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's stick to what was said, instead of what you think was said.


    I said it's a mental aberration. Paedophiles don't 'choose' to be attracted to children. I think the same is true of transgenders. They don't 'choose' to be the opposite sex. They think they are the opposite sex, stuck in the wrong body.

    Sorry to have upset you but you're the one equating child rape and wanting to change the sexual features of your own body in line with your gender, perhaps with all other mental aberrations?


    I'll repeat - the gender is what they were born with and/or developed. They may choose to live in the body they have or to change it.

  • Instead of unwarranted attack, why not ask for clarification?


    I never mentioned child rape, or linked transgenders to child rape. You did. I linked the mental aberrations that cause both paedophilia and someone believing they were a different gender to their biological gender. They don't 'choose' to be that way.


    To try and be as clear as possible .... as I would with a six year old .... I am saying that their mind tells them they are a different sex, just as paedophiles don't 'choose' to be attracted to children. They just are attracted to children.


    I thought I had already explained this, but no matter. You chose to misunderstand me.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Nothing is unclear because you keep repeating this idea that all mental aberrations are the same. You also continue to ignore the fact that someone born what they consider to be in a body of a different sex to their perceived gender may or may not decide to change their body to suit. That part is a choice and it is only then when people start to care.

  • Nothing is unclear because you keep repeating this idea that all mental aberrations are the same. You also continue to ignore the fact that someone born what they consider to be in a body of a different sex to their perceived gender may or may not decide to change their body to suit. That part is a choice and it is only then when people start to care.

    There you go again! I didn't declare that all mental aberrations are the same. Are you being deliberately provocative?


    Let me remind you what I actually said (below). I was exploring the possibility, but as you are so keen to tell me what I am saying and thinking ... I'll leave it there. Think what the hell you like!


    What's the difference between that aberration, and one where a man thinks they are really a woman, and vice versa?

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Very clear although I don't blame you for backtracking. Try to do it gracefully though.

  • You are a wind up merchant who still persists in telling me what I do, why I do it, and what I think.


    Please stop!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Play nicely people lest I need to step in.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

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  • Do you really think that's good parallel? To put it another way, do you see a parallel between "mum/dad, I think I can only become a whole person comfortable in my skin once I've changed my sex" versus "mum/dad, I'm thinking of becoming a cripple because those wheelchair ramps are fun and I like a big loo"


    I guess the point I'm making here is that I don't think society should put itself out for a bunch of crazy mixed up kids, self-made deviants or tossers.

    So, I'm guessing from that remark, that you don't accept there is such a thing as a transgender person? And you reckon that a little boy who states to "his" parents that they are a girl, wants to get "his" willy cut off as an attention seeking move? Perhaps he didn't get the PS4 game "he" wanted, so wants the snip to get revenge on "his" parents?:rolleyes:

    My wife had a transgender woman working for her. Quite a bit more than just an effeminate man.

    Do you know when she realised she was a she? Has she had the op?

    I'm sure we can group some of them. With any luck we'll only need about 10 different social/physical space/quarantining categories. Well, maybe 20 if each has a separate subcategory of accessibility for the physically disabled.

    Who do you propose to quarantine? Almost missed that...:huh:

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  • Well, actually there aren't any general posting "rules" yet, it's on the to do list. We just have the main rules which are located at the bottom of each page called Terms and conditions. You helped to write them, Hoxton, if you remember.


    Anyway, I'm just about to spend the next six hours in hospital, so please cut out the backbiting while I'm away. Hopefully when I return, it will be harmonious everywhere.:)


    Back to topic.

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  • Just reminding you what you said however that seems to be against the rules.

    There is an easy solution. Just stop spinning, and telling me that I said something different to what I actually said! I won't accept distortions of my words. I tried to be amicable, but you wouldn't let go and kept on with the distortions.


    Likewise, I was prepared to let it go and move on, but you won't, will you?

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

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