Is Brexit meaningless?

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  • They have done the deal on passporting already.

    They have no choice.

    No one else is able to lend them that kind of money.

    They did the deal last week. Deal or No Deal, please can the UK continue passporting arrangements.

    It was in the financials. I'll see if I can find you a link.

    Edit, here's one.

    I haven't read it.

    Should be OK.

    https://expertinvestoreurope.com/eu-firms-passp…ent-of-no-deal/

    25 Jul 2018 - EU firms will be able to continue passporting into the UK if the Brexit transition period is canned, according to the UK's Financial Conduct ...

    The tail does not wag the dog.

    Almost all EU governments depend on UK banking to stay afloat. They run deficits.


    A little bit of "can do" is all you need for all these fake problems to go away.

  • I remember an online seminar I watched pre-referendum. They said no matter what the result, we would not be allowed to leave the EU because others (of power and influence) have too much at stake to allow it. I have tried really hard to find it so I could watch it again (with hindsight) but cannot find it. Maybe it got removed from Youtube.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I remember an online seminar I watched pre-referendum. They said no matter what the result, we would not be allowed to leave the EU because others (of power and influence) have too much at stake to allow it. I have tried really hard to find it so I could watch it again (with hindsight) but cannot find it. Maybe it got removed from Youtube.

    I still need to refer back to the EU Withdrawal Act, but I'm pretty sure that one of the first paragraphs repealed the original 1972 European Act and subsequent acts. If that's the case, I don't understand, even with May's tactics, how we can stay in the EU after 29th March next year. If we stayed in the customs union etc after this time, we'd be braking own own law, unless I'm missing something??:/

  • I still need to refer back to the EU Withdrawal Act, but I'm pretty sure that one of the first paragraphs repealed the original 1972 European Act and subsequent acts. If that's the case, I don't understand, even with May's tactics, how we can stay in the EU after 29th March next year. If we stayed in the customs union etc after this time, we'd be braking own own law, unless I'm missing something??:/

    That's how I understand it too, that the 72 act will be repealed on exit day. Also, the Lisbon Treaty does not cater for the withdrawal of Article 50, but does say we can reapply. I dread to think what the terms of re-entry would be, but I now try never to underestimate the treachery that is being conducted by our PM.

    There is a lot of discontent over EU membership (has been for decades), and I can only imagine it increasing, especially if we get tied in to even less favourable terms. Our kamikaze PM seems not to care about the wishes of UK citizens, just as the EU cares not one jot for the wishes of EU citizens.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • She believes what she believes, it's just the exact opposite of what the majority of the electorate believe and voted for.

    It will be like a house of cards and I don't expect the EU will survive in its current for the long term, but there will be one hell of a fight to keep the status quo. We're having our little tiff in the UK over this, but others will follow.

    The French no more want to be merged with the Germans, than the Germans do with the Greeks etc. Something has to change and Brexit will be the start of it, assuming the Italian debt crisis doesn't overtake and ruin our party. They bloody better not!:)

  • Hi - first post here. :)

    While in morose search for a "Brexity thread that doesn't seem like Groundhog Day I have just come across yours.

    Belated mega thanks for a thought-provoking post. I've printed it out and shall sleep on it and reply tomorrow. Meanwhile my fingers are twitching to adda few first thoughts:

    At the beginning I thought the same way as you do now, which is that Brexit was never going to make much difference. I read Neil Woodford's report which I recall was written before Article 50 was set in motion and I agreed with his prognosis that it was much ado about (next-to) nothing. I'm inclined to take a bet with him and invest in some British equities which have taken a pasting recently.

    What I hadn't allowed for (and I guess neither had Mr Woodford) was that we had a Government with 2 consecutive lousy prime ministers (the first was bad enough, the second is something else again), plus a bunch of self-seeking careerist Tory MP's arguing among themselves, and an arrogant incompetence to negotiate a happy or at least amicable parting with the EU.

    So when you pose the rhetorical question as to whether Brexit is meaningless, my short off-the-cuff answer was that I thought it wouldn't matter one way or the other. But clearly it has mattered - and I'm talking diagnosis rather that prognosis. I say that because the economy is already starting to run on a lean mixture, investment is being deferred, budgets trimmed, decision-paralysis is infectious and the EU is hellbent on making an example of us and eager to feed itself on the spoils.

    It shouldn't have mattered.

    Granted, in the long run, this doomsday prognosis might prove to be a temporary set-back (or, as you euphemize it, "transitory") and Britain might learn to cease its ridiculous unnecessary self-harming. The current Government might come to its senses and haul away Theresa May in a straight-jacket and find a leader who is the economic equivalent of Churchill in those darkest hours. If they can do that before popular/mob democracy adds another zero to the 700,000 protesters a day or two ago, and if the Government remembers soon enough what they are on this planet for, it might just prevent a Marxist-orientated Government waltzing into Number 10, hellbent on a massive re-distribution of wealth which will plunge Britain down to the lowest common-denominator. To put it another way, in the short to medium term it could be worrying. And in long term, many of us will be dead.

    Those are just my off-the-cuff first thoughts.

    Goodnight!

  • Agreed, Horizon. I will accept the short term pain of our politicians adjusting themselves into doing the job they are paid for, and actually govern this country instead of allowing the EU to do it on their behalf.

    If our politicians cannot make a success of Brexit, when there are many inferior economies that manage to do well, in fact they do better than EU members (possibly barring Germany), then they should be sacked for incompetence.

    Barring potential EU 'punishment', I fail to see how we can do worse by making our own laws, having bespoke trade deals, and keeping our money for the benefit of UK citizens, and not dishing out taxpayer funded benefits to any EU or non-EU citizen who decides to live here and not paying taxpayer funded bribes and cheap loans which encourage businesses to move to other EU countries, or bail outs (non-repayable loans!) to failing EU economies. The UK should decide who lives here, not the EU, and the UK should decide where our taxpayers money goes, not the EU!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Forum Fan asks forum members if there is one EU law or directive that has had a negative impact on our life. That’s a clever way of posing the question, in that it brushes away the EU as a trivial matter. The fact of the matter is not the EU’s various laws and directives, it’s their consequence, which no longer can be dismissed as a figment of imaginative pessimism.

    Granted, the EU has produced too many laws and directives in too short a space in time, which is over-prescriptive, and emasculating for a country like ours which has been self-ruling and unconquered since 1066. Maybe it’s time for Britain to be conquered again and assimilate with its unstoppable “invaders”, as it did with the Normans. The potential new conqueror is the aggregation of Europe, viz the EU. Britain’s choice is either to be a friendly partner or a belligerent foe to be conquered or rendered powerless and insignificant. Maybe, just like in 1066, Britain will realise that it will be best to go with the flow and be influential from within, just like it did almost a thousand years ago,.

    Just because Britain did not succeed in being influential in more recent years isn’t necessarily the fault of the EU. The calibre and personality of Britain’s government, especially at the top, does not have a winning way - and that’s an understatement – the dominant impressions left with the EU are presumption, arrogance, indecision, vagueness and a misguided self-entitlement of exceptionality. Is it just me who finds that embarrassing?

    Obviously Britain has no desire to be conquered by the EU and no doubt that feeling is mutual. Britain is taking its traditional position of defensive belligerence, in that if it can’t get what it wants and believes it should have, it will face conquest.or subjugation, This is no way for Britain to win friends or forge partnerships. From the EU’s standpoint, they are a club of member states, abiding by a set of rules and a the goal of becoming the United States of Europe (although some may fear a United States of Germany with a bitchy French poodle in tow as junior partner/yes-man).

    As I said at the beginning of this rejoinder, the negative impact of Brexit is not the EU’s club rules (laws and directives), it is the consequence of Britain’s contrariness about signing up to those club rules and its sheer chutzpah in telling Europe what it requires in the way of exceptions to those rules. Who the hell do we think we are?

    What are these consequences? Uncertainty, anxiety and fear of the future, which are surely justifiable feelings after a Groundhog Day eternity of negotiation by a dim autocratic, aperger-ish, uncommunicative Prime Minister, a semi-supporting cabinet of Eunuchs and 300+ Tory MP chickens running around with their heads removed.

    I agree, that’s all a bit general and too much to do with feelings. I think “Forum Fan” wants to know about the more tangible negative impacts that Brexit may have had on a British citizen’s life. Obviously I shall just speak for myself rather than pontificate about other people’s problems:

    Consequences of Brexit on my circumstances:

    1 Can’t sell my house except by taking a big hit. Which puts my relocation plans on hold

    2 Can’t re-locate to anywhere else in Europe, nor know that I can take roots there

    3 Can’t find a safe place for my savings which pay more than diddly-squat interest

    4 Can’t invest in UK equities except as a high-return/high-risk gamble

    5 Can’t provide consultancy services on New Product Development because clients are putting NPD on hold

    6 Other negatives are just minor pinpricks

    Reasons for Remaining

    1 Economic survival at least in the short-to-medium term

    2 Won’t go down with the ship if stay out of the Eurozone

    3 Can better reform the EU from within provided the next Tory leader isn’t like May and Cameron

    4 No reason to think EU government would be more stupid or irrational than our present UK government

    5 UK Law is no quicker, fairer, more fathomable or in touch with ordinary people than is EU Law

    6 Believe EU medical services would be superior to NHS

    7 Believe most EU member states have better infrastructure than UK

    8 No problem with EU’s unelected parliament. They are more impressive than our democratic version

    9 Brexit mess-up to date is already set to raise taxes and reduce public services and it could get worse

    10 Britain has enough important sovereign decisions it can make even while being an EU member state

    11 Britain can get away with flouting EU’s sillier, unreasonable rules, as do several other EU member states

    12 Britain remaining can encourage existing investors to stay and prospective investors not to shy away

    13 Britain can properly protect its borders if minded to do so

    14 Britain can get tough with tax-avoiding multi-nationals if minded to do so

    15 Britain’s gig economy can continue to sidestep inflexible parts of EU employment law

    16 Britain can discuss trading possibilities with any global region as long as it wears an EU member hat

    17 Britain doesn’t have to switch from Sterling to the Euro

    Reasons for Leaving without any deal

    1 Incapable of negotiating sensibly, clearly and tactfully

    2 Forgot to remind EU that it takes two to tango

    3 Failed to realise that the EU wants to squash us

    4 There never was a deal to be made; but at let’s try for an amicable divorce

    5 Britain’s independence was no more negotiable than the EU’s rules & regulations and goals/mission

    6 European federalisation = homogenization = sameness = blurring of current identity and values

    7 EU immigration policies is an economic, social and security threat to the soul of Europe

    8 Healthier for Britain to sharpen its ability to trade worldwide under its own aegis rather than the EU’s

    9 More sensible, necessary and profitable for Britain to be importing from outside the EU

    10 Many British companies cheat or short-change citizens. It would be nice if Britain could put a stop to that

    11 America would like to be on our side if only we could stop behaving like a bunch of stupid losers

    .

    Finally, Forum Fan” suggests that, when it comes to the finer points about the EU and Brexit, that ignorance can be bliss and that it may be unnecessary to swot up on matters that we don’t need to address. The downside of such thinking is that it can mean taking for granted a trading system that could fail through incompetence and/or acrimony and cause us much dismay and real hardship. There is evidence of that already happening, in that Brexit has become an unholy mess and is clearly a major threat to Britain’s economy, social fabric and global;status,

  • How are we going to achieve the gain that removes the pain?

    We don't. It will be painful in the short term as our economy will need to adjust to life outside the EU. More so, if there is no deal.

    Oh well, at least there are no trade tensions going on at the moment around the world and there is a amicable president in America who wants to do a good deal with us....it will all be fine.:/

    The UK should decide who lives here, not the EU, and the UK should decide where our taxpayers money goes, not the EU!

    That sums up in a sentenced why I voted for Brexit. It's called national sovereignty, something the EU is very much trying to dismantle.

  • Granted, the EU has produced too many laws and directives in too short a space in time, which is over-prescriptive, and emasculating for a country like ours which has been self-ruling and unconquered since 1066. Maybe it’s time for Britain to be conquered again and assimilate with its unstoppable “invaders”, as it did with the Normans. The potential new conqueror is the aggregation of Europe, viz the EU. Britain’s choice is either to be a friendly partner or a belligerent foe to be conquered or rendered powerless and insignificant. Maybe, just like in 1066, Britain will realise that it will be best to go with the flow and be influential from within, just like it did almost a thousand years ago,.

    No. You're making it too binary. Either we be wedded to the EU or be their enemy, in effect. I don't accept that. Nothing wrong with just being neighbours with them.

    As I said at the beginning of this rejoinder, the negative impact of Brexit is not the EU’s club rules (laws and directives), it is the consequence of Britain’s contrariness about signing up to those club rules and its sheer chutzpah in telling Europe what it requires in the way of exceptions to those rules. Who the hell do we think we are?

    Some have compared our membership akin to being part of a golf club where you have to abide by membership rules or leave. But the problem with that analogy is that with a gold club, you just pay your membership fee. With the EU, we are a substantial shareholder and we've not been taken seriously enough.

  • 1. Don't know your personal circumstances, so hard to comment on, but the ridiculous house prices are nothing to do with the EU, but supply and demand in the UK. The slow down started before this Brexit process.

    2. Assuming no deal, ever heard of visa application? It's not that difficult.

    3. Keep watching the media mergers thread.;) Although, the collapse in the pound we're about to have, probably comes at exactly the wrong time for my investment targets which are all mostly American.

    4. Arguable. Although I accept that if you are over a certain age, the appetite for taking on risk would be far more limited.

    5. Can't comment, but it could be just a tightening of the belt anyway, regardless of Brexit.

  • 1. Rubbish. We have a far more nimble economy than most in the EU.

    2. Whether we're in the eurozone or not, we'd be affected by its collapse. Better to be out of it, all of it.

    3. Nooooo. They are hell bent on a federal state, they will not change from this course, one which was set during WW2.

    4. No reason to think it would either, just look at coverage of the EU parliament. Total mess and who knows what goes on behind the scenes at the commission. A complete unknown.

    5. Rubbish. Too much to go into here, but we elect our politicians who make law and can get rid of them if we don't like them. Who elects the EU commission?

    6. There is no such thing as EU medical services.

    7. I thought you were well travelled.... even in Germany, things are not are rosy as it may seem from a distance.

    8. Nice wind up.:)

    9. Arguable. We could lower taxes and raise more finance as a result for things, including public services.

    10. Yes and no. That would need a new thread in itself on this. We can't prevent EU workers from coming here though, can we?

    11. The Germans and French broke the fiscal compact immediately upon creation of the euro. But I don't take your argument as a reason for staying.

    12. I doubt they'll be much investor flight, but we'll see.

    13. Rubbish. See my answer to No 10.

    14. Being part of the single market, we have to act as one, so this point is arguable, but we could still get on Amazon's/Starbuck's etc case far more if we so wished, so partially agree here.

    15. Until they make more law.

    16. And follows EU law.

    17. Never thought I would have a good word to say about Gordon Brown, but thank god he kept us out, so true.

  • 1. I wouldn't mind any form of negotiation, tactful and sensible, or not. May is a remainer, the EU know that and we are where we are. The only real negotiations would've happened had May been toppled by now, but even if she is now, we're out of time.

    2. That in itself is not a reason.

    3. as above.

    4. as point 1.

    5. I'm not sure I'm following you here. We signed away our "independence" through several treaties which have now been repealed. Yes, it can be argued that at the beginning the EEC was simply a trade organisation, but as we know now with the benefit of the internet, the plan to create a European state was made more than 70 years ago. The average joe on the street did not know this, but the politicians did and they eagerly signed anyway our independence regardless.

    6. But that's no reason for leaving without a deal. That's just a reason for leaving.

    7. as above.

    8. Yes, but I still maintain to leave with a good deal is better to leave without any deal. Although, a bad deal would be just as undesirable.

    9. But if we had a good deal, we could still do that, however the "have your cake and eat it" scenario is about as unlikely as me trying to post with half decent grammar.

    10. What does that have to do with Brexit, let alone a no deal one?

    12. as above and besides, who knows what's in the current American president's mind.

    Finally, Forum Fan” suggests that, when it comes to the finer points about the EU and Brexit, that ignorance can be bliss and that it may be unnecessary to swot up on matters that we don’t need to address. The downside of such thinking is that it can mean taking for granted a trading system that could fail through incompetence and/or acrimony and cause us much dismay and real hardship. There is evidence of that already happening, in that Brexit has become an unholy mess and is clearly a major threat to Britain’s economy, social fabric and global;status,

    I agree that ignorance is just ignorance and also agree that the EU could just fail due to inflexibility and ignoring important stuff like jobs and growth over the "more Europe" pet project. So, Brexit is not meaningless, quite the opposite. Better to be out of the house of the cards, before they all fall down and take us with them.

  • My initial posted comments in italics

    Horizon's response in straight typeface

    My response to his response in bold

    Reasons for Remaining

    1 Economic survival at least in the short-to-medium term

    1. Rubbish. We have a far more nimble economy than most in the EU

    1 You’ll be telling me next that small is beautiful

    2 Won’t go down with the ship if stay out of the Eurozone

    2. Whether we're in the eurozone or not, we'd be affected by its collapse. Better to be out of it, all of it.

    2 If we remain in the EU but stay out of the Eurozone, we will be betting both ways, surely that's smart

    3 Can better reform the EU from within provided the next Tory leader isn’t like May and Cameron

    3. Nooooo. They are hell bent on a federal state, they will not change from this course, one which was set during WW2.

    3 I beg to differ. But even if you're right, we could escape before that happens. Remaining isn't a life sentence

    4 No reason to think EU government would be more stupid or irrational than our present UK government

    4. No reason to think it would either, just look at coverage of the EU parliament. Total mess and who knows what goes on behind the scenes at the commission. A complete unknown.

    4 You do a lot of thinking here but say nothing. Can’t you make your biases more subtle and at least pretend to be open minded?

    5 UK Law is no quicker, fairer, more fathomable or in touch with ordinary people than is EU Law

    5. Rubbish. Too much to go into here, but we elect our politicians who make law and can get rid of them if we don't like them. Who elects the EU commission?

    5 You lost me after rubbish. In fact, you lost yourself. Re-read my point 5 or just move on

    6 Believe EU medical services would be superior to NHS

    6. There is no such thing as EU medical services

    6 You know exactly the point I’m making, Only nitwits nitpick.

    7 Believe most EU member states have better infrastructure than UK

    7. I thought you were well travelled. Even in Germany, things are not are rosy as it may seem from a distance.

    7 Difference of opinion here. We both need more facts

    8 No problem with EU’s unelected parliament. They are more impressive than our democratic version

    8. Nice wind up

    8 Is that a more profound response than “rubbish”? Is it better or worse? I wait with bated breath

    9 Brexit mess-up to date is already set to raise taxes and reduce public services and it could get worse

    9. Arguable. We could lower taxes and raise more finance as a result for things, including public services

    9 Yes, arguable. For borrowing do you think Britain today will have a Triple A rating? Really?

    10 Britain has enough important sovereign decisions it can make even while being an EU member state

    10. Yes and no. That would need a new thread in itself on this. We can't prevent EU workers from coming here though, can we?

    10 Yes & No to your question. We can block or deter the undesirables with mind-numbing bureaucracy and holding/detention centres

    11 Britain can get away with flouting EU’s sillier, unreasonable rules, as do several other EU member

    11. The Germans and French broke the fiscal compact immediately upon creation of the euro. But I don't take your argument as a reason for staying states

    11 It’s not a reason for staying. It’s a reason for not handcuffing yourself when you needn’t

    12 Britain remaining can encourage existing investors to stay and prospective investors not to shy away

    12. I doubt they'll be much investor flight, but we'll see

    12 Is that your way of agreeing with the second part of my point?

    13 Britain can properly protect its borders if minded to do so

    13. Rubbish. See my answer to No 10

    13 Your answer 10 is no answer at all. Your answer here (13) puts the Grate into Britain.

    14 Britain can get tough with tax-avoiding multi-nationals if minded to do so

    14. Being part of the single market, we have to act as one, so this point is arguable, but we could still get on Amazon's/Starbuck's etc case far more if we so wished, so partially agree here.

    14 My goodness, I’ve exceeded “rubbish”. Partial agreement is more than I could have dreamt of earning

    15 Britain’s gig economy can continue to sidestep inflexible parts of EU employment law

    15. Until they make more law

    15 Your answer says it all. Your mind is made up. No wonder Brexiteers are viewed with disdain

    16 Britain can discuss trading possibilities with any global region as long as it wears an EU member hat

    16. And follows EU law

    16 I chose my words here carefully. There is no EU law to follow when just having “informal talks”

    17 Britain doesn’t have to switch from Sterling to the Euro
    17. Never thought I’d have a good word to say about Gordon Brown - thank god he kept us out

    17 Whoopie, another non-rubbish point! My sterling cup runneth over

    Reasons for Leaving without any deal

    1 Incapable of negotiating sensibly, clearly and tactfully

    1. I wouldn't mind any form of negotiation, tactful and sensible, or not. May is a remainer, the EU know that and we are where we are. The only real negotiations would've happened had May been toppled by now, but even if she is now, we're out of time.

    1 There is no time limit – the EU are content for us dangle in never never land for as long as we wish (heh heh!)

    2 Forgot to remind EU that it takes two to tango

    2. That in itself is not a reason

    2 It’s a reason for failing to get a deal

    3 Failed to realise that the EU wants to squash us

    3. as above.

    3 Do you mean if we knew that was EU’s ultimate aim we’d still be Turkeys voting for Christmas?

    4 There never was a deal to be made; but at let’s try for an amicable divorce

    4. as point 1.

    4 There was a good deal to be made but not with arrogant dithering fools like us led by May

    5 Britain’s independence was no more negotiable than the EU’s rules & regulations and goals/mission

    5. I'm not sure I'm following you here. We signed away our "independence" through several treaties which have now been repealed. Yes, it can be argued that at the beginning the EEC was simply a trade organisation, but as we know now with the benefit of the internet, the plan to create a European state was made more than 70 years ago. The average joe on the street did not know this, but the politicians did and they eagerly signed anyway our independence regardless.

    5 Sorry, I explained it badly. How about: why should our red lines be more valid than the EU’s?

    6 European federalisation = homogenization = sameness = blurring of current identity and values

    6. But that's no reason for leaving without a deal. That's just a reason for leaving.

    6 If the reason I have given here in 6 is compelling, then it’s a reason that cannot be compromised

    7 EU immigration policies is an economic, social and security threat to the soul of Europe

    7. as above.

    7 As above

    8 Healthier for Britain to sharpen its ability to trade worldwide under its own aegis rather than the EU’s

    8. Yes, but I still maintain to leave with a good deal is better (than?) to leave without any deal. Although, a bad deal would be just as undesirable

    8 I think the Government and media have done to death this childlike obvious logic

    9 More sensible, necessary and profitable for Britain to be importing from outside the EU

    9. But if we had a good deal, we could still do that, however the "have your cake and eat it" scenario is about as unlikely as me trying to post with half decent grammar

    9 I’m saying we can and should import from we like – irrespective of whether we remain or leaving.

    10 Many British companies cheat or short-change citizens. It would be nice if Britain could put a stop to that

    10. What does that have to do with Brexit, let alone a no deal one?

    10 I agree, it seems unconnected. I’m just thinking what a pleasant surprise if Britain took better care of its citizens in this respect than it does at present. So uncharacteristic!

    11 America would like to be on our side if only we could stop behaving like a bunch of stupid losers

    11. as above and besides, who knows what's in the current American president's mind

    11 Surely obvious. As strong partners with US we would have much clout in and beyond the EU

    11 Don’t worry what’s in Trump’s mind. When it comes leader sanity, we should be so lucky!

    Finally, "Forum Fan” suggests that, when it comes to the finer points about the EU and Brexit, that ignorance can be bliss and that it may be unnecessary to swot up on matters that we don’t need to address. The downside of such thinking is that it can mean taking for granted a trading system that could fail through incompetence and/or acrimony and cause us much dismay and real hardship. There is evidence of that already happening, in that Brexit has become an unholy mess and is clearly a major threat to Britain’s economy, social fabric and global;status,

    I agree that ignorance is just ignorance and also agree that the EU could just fail due to inflexibility and ignoring important stuff like jobs and growth over the "more Europe" pet project. So, Brexit is not meaningless, quite the opposite. Better to be out of the house of the cards, before they all fall down and take us with them

    EU is going through a period of introspection/adjustment/reform. It would be wise to be part of that rethink. If the EU's soul-searching turns out to be a mirage of meaningless navel gazing .we could leave any time, if necessary, without a deal. Personally I would rather leave now without any deal that is restrictive ….. but only if the Government could stop interfering, negotiating and trying to take charge of the breakaway and only if most of Britain’s business community stopped whingeing and became more dynamically entrepreneurial.

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