Chloe's Campaign To Start A Girl's Rugby Team At School

When making a post, please ensure it complies with this site's Main Rules at all times.
  • https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/w…uLF2tQKnf5xQwTE

    What a lovely, heartwarming story about a 14 year old girl who wouldn't take "Rugby is too rough for girls" for an answer and then she did something about it.

    It's also good to see that the RFU are giving her story a showcase on their website and have advertised their details so that anybody who wants to arrange a fixture can get in touch with them. Well done, gentlemen of the RFU.

    Female participation in team sports is the fastest growing sporting activity in the country with more girls taking up team sports than boys, probably for the first time ever in our history.

    When I go to my gym I notice that there are invariably more women and girls working out than there are males. We want to look after ourselves better.

    It isn't just about rugby. I would encourage all girls at all schools to challenge any policy that excludes them from team sports. I emphasise team sports because individual sports such as tennis, athletics or swimming are pretty much evenly encouraged and have been for a long time. There is no problem there.

    But team sports have been treated differently. I played women's rugby at university (Centre Threequarter). My (then) girlfriend (now wife) played in the back row. But even in 2003 to 05, we were still regarded as oddballs. A novelty.

    Happily, that is changing now and there is much more TV coverage of women's sport, which has encouraged interest and provided role models for girls to see and aspire to. "If she can do it, so can I".

    I say: "Well done Chloe." Hopefully more will follow her example and we will see the women's game flourish even more.

  • I do not approve of women playing rough sports and especially boxing for one very special reason.

    I have know of three women in particular who were in the front seat and involved in nasty car crashes, they were all thrown forward and bashed their breasts on the front

    All three subsequently developed breast cancer which spread and killed them

  • As you know I say live and let live. If the girl wants to play rugby let her play rugby. I think the fact she had difficulties says more about her school than it does about her, although credit where its due for the campaigning that she had to do. Good on her, I hope she has an enjoyable and injury free rugby career ahead of her.

    I was watching the Connor McGregor fight last weekend and there were a couple of women's fights on the undercard. Now clearly the ladies do not have the knock out power that some of the men do so the fights seemed to be more of a wrestle than a mix of martial arts but nevertheless there was no holding back. They were absolutely brutal and the amount of blood that was spilt was truly alarming. The canvas was absolutely ruined and yet they were allowed to fight on. Had it been boxing the fight would have been stopped long before it got to this. I had never seen anything like it before and TBH it made for slightly uncomfortable viewing, that probably says more about me than anything though.

    Your comments about more women in your gym and women wanting to take care of themselves more than men do. I would comment that men and women both want to take care of themselves but from my experiences the women and the men do not want the same thing from their gym. Therefore gyms tend to set out to attract predominately male or female customers. I know that men who are serious about their work outs like to use loose weights which women generally don't use as much, ok they use 2kg dumbbells when doing lunges but that doesn't count! Men use heavy weights and whilst there are women round who also use the heavy loose weights they are far fewer in number.

    My sons girlfriend complains a lot about blokes leering at her backside when she is using the cross trainer or any machine for that matter so she prefers to go somewhere that is less intimidating or women only sessions. Again, this is not her fault, its the men, they can't help themselves when they see a pretty girl, it has ever been thus.

    There is a lot more women's team sports on TV these days and things have progressed quite a way from the once every fours years watching the GB women's hockey team in the Olympics.

    I have heard talk of mixed sex team sports but to be honest I'm not at all sure that it is a good idea because the style of play for men and women in the same sport is different in many cases. I'm sure you have a point of view on this. For example I wouldn't think that men and women playing competitive rugby in mixed teams is a good idea. What do you think?

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • The BBC have forced womens football on us as they have lost the mens matches but there are not the bums on seats in the stadiums

    I do applaud the ever increasing numbers of women commentators, they are better spoken, better looking, and better informed

  • The BBC have forced womens football on us as they have lost the mens matches but there are not the bums on seats in the stadiums

    I do applaud the ever increasing numbers of women commentators, they are better spoken, better looking, and better informe

    Being absolutely honest, where men and women play the same sport, be that an individual or team sport, I have yet to witness the women's version being played at a higher level than the mens version. At this point I have not crossed the line into sexism or misogyny, it is just an observation based on over half a century as a sports fan. If anyone can say they have seen women playing a sport at a higher level than men please pipe up and inform me.

    For that reason alone, I find watching some womens sport challenging as its just a bit slower, a bit lower intensity and just a bit crap, in fact its a bit like watching kids play especially the traditional male sports such as football and rugby. I forced myself to watch some of the later rounds of the womens world cup football as it was being touted as the highest level in womens football (which obviously it is). But it was still a bit shit to be honest as a viewing spectacle. The power, pace, aggression were all at the same level that you would see from 12 year old boys who had just started playing on a full size pitch. In fact that is what it reminded me of. Perhaps women should play on a smaller pitch to increase the intensity. After all women drive from a shorter tee in Golf so why not?

    Before anyone kicks off at me I have no objection to womens sport at all and in individual sports such as athletics where they have their own measures of excellence interms of established world records it is absolutely possible to watch, enjoy and appreciate the dedication and skill levels that the competitors have achieved in absolute terms. Jessica Ennis-Hill being one particular example where her achievements are completely beyond any criticism, ditto for the Williams sisters in tennis and countless others.

    However, when women play team sports that have been traditionally played by men, it is very easy to see the significant downgrade in game quality. Perhaps it won't always be like this, perhaps now that the bandwagon has started womens sport will surpass mens sport in all the areas I have suggested it is currently lacking. Only time will tell.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Being absolutely honest, where men and women play the same sport, be that an individual or team sport, I have yet to witness the women's version being played at a higher level than the mens version. At this point I have not crossed the line into sexism or misogyny, it is just an observation based on over half a century as a sports fan. If anyone can say they have seen women playing a sport at a higher level than men please pipe up and inform me.

    For that reason alone, I find watching some womens sport challenging as its just a bit slower, a bit lower intensity and just a bit crap, in fact its a bit like watching kids play especially the traditional male sports such as football and rugby. I forced myself to watch some of the later rounds of the womens world cup football as it was being touted as the highest level in womens football (which obviously it is). But it was still a bit shit to be honest as a viewing spectacle. The power, pace, aggression were all at the same level that you would see from 12 year old boys who had just started playing on a full size pitch. In fact that is what it reminded me of. Perhaps women should play on a smaller pitch to increase the intensity. After all women drive from a shorter tee in Golf so why not?

    Before anyone kicks off at me I have no objection to womens sport at all and in individual sports such as athletics where they have their own measures of excellence interms of established world records it is absolutely possible to watch, enjoy and appreciate the dedication and skill levels that the competitors have achieved in absolute terms. Jessica Ennis-Hill being one particular example where her achievements are completely beyond any criticism, ditto for the Williams sisters in tennis and countless others.

    However, when women play team sports that have been traditionally played by men, it is very easy to see the significant downgrade in game quality. Perhaps it won't always be like this, perhaps now that the bandwagon has started womens sport will surpass mens sport in all the areas I have suggested it is currently lacking. Only time will tell.

    A number of points to cover there, and no, I'm not going to accuse you of anything so please relax on that point.

    Firstly, women playing on smaller pitches. That proposal was put forward some years ago when professional clubs began to take an interest in having women's teams. That did not go down very well and was rejected.

    We don't want smaller pitches or softer footballs or smaller goals because our goalkeepers aren't as tall as their male counterparts. A goal is 8 yards wide and 8 feet high. That's what it is. We'll play to that standard or not at all.

    We don't want special rules, we want a level playing field. If - generally - we're physically less powerful than men then that is just a biological constraint that we get on with. And this is why there are no mixed teams or leagues.

    Quite simply, you play in your league and we'll play in ours. We don't mind that. All we want is to be able to play at all.

    I have never played football. My sporting background is mostly in rugby union and when I played at uni the attitude from the men was entirely supportive and accepting. The lads welcomed the girls into the social scene of university rugby. We all got on very well. This was no surprise to me because I've been around the game since I was a little girl and used to watch my dad play for Blackheath RFC in the amateur days. Rugby has always been female friendly in the fan base and has taken to accepting women in the game much more readily than football.

    I also play netball in the local league. I love netball and perhaps its telling that men are not trying to break into that in the same way that women are breaking into traditional male sports. Over to you on that one.

    Women in team sports is a work in progress. We don't care if our standard isn't as high as the male. We play to the best of our ability and that's good enough for us. In a professional sense, it's unlikely that the seriously huge sponsorship and TV packages will ever come to women's football but hey..... ten years ago, who would have seen women's football having it's own version of Match Of The Day on the BBC...!!!

    We've come a long way in a short space of time. And we're not done yet.


    As for the gym...... Most gymnasiums that I've used have a wide variety of equipment available with the majority dedicated to aerobic exercise. At mine there is a selection of weights equipment available both free standing and resistance machinery. I mostly use dumb bells for general toning but the majority of my work out is aerobic for stamina, health and fitness.

    Yes, there are the oglers in gyms. I don't like it and most women I know don't. We know it goes on but mostly ignore it as a tiresome masculine trait that is easily ignored as long as it isn't too overt and obvious. If you have to look at my tits out of the corner of your eyes, all I'll say is: Get a life, mate.

    In my opinion there is too much comparison between male and female levels of fitness, strength and competitiveness in sport. Frankly, I didn't care how good the men's team were at uni. I cared about how good WE were. I didn't train so that I could say I was as good as the men. I trained so I could play the best I could for the team I was a part of.

    Socially, we could hold our own in the bar and that was enough to earn the lads respect..!! Rugger buggers, eh..? What are they like..?

    As I've said previously in this post. We don't want to play against men. Be like men. Play like men, or be as strong as men.

    We just want to play.

  • Once again I cannot take exception to anything you say. There is room enough for all and that is what sport is supposed to be about at the amateur level, it brings people together gives them a joint shared of purpose and allows them to work together so that the combined talents of the group exceed the individual potential, the true indicator of great team work.

    I fully understand why women want to play on regular full size pitches, it means they play exactly the same game as the men with the same challenges, clearly the generally smaller build of women means they have to put in a shift to cover the ground but it is what it is. As I said there is a marked difference when watching women on a full size pitch because they look so small compared to the men. Also the mens professional game, be that Rugby or Football, tends to favour particular body types so there is quite a bit of physical uniformity at the highest level. I have argued with friends that Rugby has turned itself into an elite sport due to the particular body types that are favoured in the modern game. They protest that it remains a game for everyone but I say that to achieve at the highest level you have to be something of a physical freak to thrive.

    Rugby has always been a more sociable game than football, the mentality and behaviour of some football fans at the moment with racial and homophobic chants from the terraces leaves me amazed that these people still exist. At least we know where to find them on a Saturday afternoon. It is easy to believe that this is a UK only problem but this is not so there are notorious teams and supporters across Europe. Why this should be I have not a clue.

    Netball, well its a girls game isn't it? It remains ever popular with the ladies but I don't think I have ever seen boys play it except when messing about. Besides there's Basketball which is faster, more physical and allows players to actually move while in possession and is altogether a more satisfying game to play.

    Comparison of mens and womens strength and performance is ultimately futile. We are different, and that is a good great thing, we have different roles in the world and we need each other to survive. Going into pointless competition with each other makes no sense at all. Sure there are sports where men and women can perform on an equal level (in theory) but even then it is rare where the woman comes out on top. It can be argued as why that might be of course but that is another discussion for another day.

    One beef that I do have, which came out from the womans football world cup, were the chants for equal pay and the outspoken comments of Megan Rapinoe. If women want to be payed the same as men there would need to be a facility for them to play in the same leagues as the men because that is where the money is. There simply isn't the same demand for televised womens football as there is for the mens, even at its highest level, so womens football simply doesn't possess the revenue generation power of the mens game. We have already discussed that men and women should probably not play competitive team sports together so if they did, would the women even get selected for the first team without a little affirmative action? Even the worlds best female footballer couldn't hold her own against an average 15 year old boy so the whole equal pay argument has no traction, the laws of supply and demand still rule the day.

    Finally Megan Rapinoe maxed out her 15 minutes of fame with lots of right on man hating feminist twaddle that the press lapped up and of course she hates Trump but it was so predictable that she would come out as an outspoken SJW. To me it just overshadowed the successes that the womens world cup had achieved as Rapinoe stole the moment to promote herself. Enough of that - rant over.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Looking at this the other way round I find it strange to see men playing hockey which was always for the girls at school

  • I agreed with all that you wrote right up until you launched into Megan Rapinoe in the final paragraph.

    Firstly though, let me deal with the issue of wages. I believe I mentioned that I don't think women's sport will attract the same level of sponsorship and TV coverage of the men's games. That is where the majority of the money comes from these days and it is the advent of players employing agents to conduct their contract negotiations that has led to the huge increase in player salaries.

    The agents argue - quite reasonably in their way - that their players (artists?) are the ones the people come to see. They are the entertainers. That put bottoms on seats. Why shouldn't they be entitled to a greater proportion of the wealth that their skills generate?

    Fair enough.

    Bearing in mind the point I made above, if the women's game doesn't generate the same kind of income, then the money isn't there to be distributed in the first place.

    But what can be campaigned for is a fair share of what they DO generate. I don't have any facts and figures to hand, but if the level of pay is proportionately low and doesn't represent the players true value, then that IS something that should be addressed.

    Getting on to Megan Rapinoe......... She's a good woman who used her fifteen minutes to make the case that our game does have a value, and that value should be recognised. If she also made a feminist point then I didn't have a problem with that.

    We don't get enough opportunities to make a point in front of a global audience and whether or not I agreed with all she had to say, I'm glad she said it when she did. If she made those sexist men who put women down for no other reason than their femininity uncomfortable then i say "Right on" with her.

    She didn't do it with the same class that Billie Jean King did when she kicked Bobby Riggs' butt in the 1970's. He was the one who threw down the challenge. He was the one telling the world that women are inferior to men. He was the one celebrating victory before the match was played. How presumptuous. Billie Jean held her counsel until after she won and then she used it as a means of lobbying for better prize money for women. And look where we are today. The lot of women in tennis is far better proportionately than it was then. It still isn't equal (and we know the arguments about 5 sets vs 3 and all that) but Billie Jean is still campaigning and she's still as tough a bird as ever. I was especially pleased when the BBC awarded her the Lifetime Achievement trophy at the 2018 SPOTY ceremony. And she used that to make a campaign speech too...!!

    Perhaps the only thing that Megan Rapinoe lacks is a bit of class. Give Billie Jean a call, Megan. You could learn a thing or two.

  • She didn't do it with the same class that Billie Jean King did when she kicked Bobby Riggs' butt in the 1970's. He was the one who threw down the challenge. He was the one telling the world that women are inferior to men. He was the one celebrating victory before the match was played. How presumptuous. Billie Jean held her counsel until after she won and then she used it as a means of lobbying for better prize money for women. And look where we are today. The lot of women in tennis is far better proportionately than it was then. It still isn't equal (and we know the arguments about 5 sets vs 3 and all that) but Billie Jean is still campaigning and she's still as tough a bird as ever. I was especially pleased when the BBC awarded her the Lifetime Achievement trophy at the 2018 SPOTY ceremony. And she used that to make a campaign speech too...!!

    I think the advancement of women in tennis happened in spite of Billie Jean, she was too strident and almost dare I say - too masculine. Margaret Court was the same Whereas Martina ,Chris, and Yvonne pursued and achieved the objective with grace and charm

  • I think the advancement of women in tennis happened in spite of Billie Jean, she was too strident and almost dare I say - too masculine. Margaret Court was the same Whereas Martina ,Chris, and Yvonne pursued and achieved the objective with grace and charm

    You say 'masculine' some say 'strong'.

    Of course, things can be achieved in a variety of ways and we should employ whatever - lawful - means necessary to do this.

    Rachel Heyhoe-Flint captained England women at Hockey and Cricket in her career. She was, however, excluded from the Long Room at Lords' under the No Women rule that stayed in place right up to the end of the last century. She wasn't happy about this and had challenged the MCC on the ban several times only to be repeatedly rebuffed.

    When England were awarded the Cricket World Cup in 1999 it was decided to build the new media centre at the Nursery End at Lords'. For this, the MCC committee applied for a Lottery grant and initial indications were that they would get it 'on the nod'. They therefore budgeted for getting the grant and the finances for the project were set up to take it into account.

    This is where the hitherto graceful and charming Ms Heyhoe-Flint saw her opportunity. I can imagine her eyes narrowing as she quietly said to herself..... "Gotcha."

    The National Lottery rules specifically exclude making grants to organisations that practice discrimination on grounds of age, ethnicity, faith, etc, etc, etc..... and gender.

    RH-F knew this and lobbied the National Lottery to refuse the grant to the MCC and they had no option but to comply. When the MCC were informed of the refusal, they knew they could not afford the full cost of the media centre without the grant and the project couldn't be cancelled without attracting penalties because a number of contracts had already been signed. To not get the grant would be ruinous.

    The Lottery Grants Committee issued a statement that said no money could be given to the MCC all the time they excluded women from membership of the MCC and the Long Room on the grounds of their femininity, regardless of the application being for a non-related project. The fact of their institutional discrimination was enough to exclude them from a grant for any purpose.

    Very quickly, an extraordinary meeting of the members was called and a vote was held to end the ban on women. It was passed and on 16 March 1999, Rachel Heyhoe Flint became the first woman to enter the Long Room as a full member of the MCC after more than 200 years of female exclusion. It was said that she dragged the MCC into the 20th century nine months before the start of the 21st.

    Lord's was never going to change by persuasion, or the application of 'grace and charm'. Those methods had been tried and rebuffed on more than one occasion down the years. 'Grace and charm' can work, but only when the men concerned are receptive to flattery and a pretty smile. Women know this. Why do you think we fake our smiles so often..?

    Billy-Jean lived in an American system that didn't do flattery and she campaigned for women in an era (the 1970s) when the feminist movement was - of necessity - very militant. Nobody was listening to 'grace and charm' back then.

    The old saying goes that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Women will use whichever method is necessary to achieve the desired goal.

    Or all of them if that's what it takes.

  • Your example is nothing to do with women using their wiles, it was just the Lottery rules and the application for a grant that made the MCC change their rules

    The same thing applied to a gold course in Scotland that banned women when they wanted to stage a tournament, they had to change their rules before they could stage the competition

    Rightly so in all cases, there is no reason to exclude on gender

    I vaguely remember RHF bit I may be confusing her with the golfing lady Laura Davies, both chatming and nothing like as strident as Billie Jean Moffat then King.

  • Your example is nothing to do with women using their wiles, it was just the Lottery rules and the application for a grant that made the MCC change their rules

    The same thing applied to a gold course in Scotland that banned women when they wanted to stage a tournament, they had to change their rules before they could stage the competition

    Rightly so in all cases, there is no reason to exclude on gender

    I vaguely remember RHF bit I may be confusing her with the golfing lady Laura Davies, both chatming and nothing like as strident as Billie Jean Moffat then King.

    Oh, it has everything to do with RH-F. As I said in my post, the MCC were so confident that they would get the money 'on the nod' that they signed contracts in anticipation of getting it and in doing so painted themselves into a corner. This is where Rachel saw her opportunity.... and went for it. And won.

    OK..... enough of this.

    The thread was about highlighting a 14 year old girl who did something positive and started a rugby team. And it's morphed into a diatribe against strong women who show a bit of smarts and actually - heavens to Betsy - win against the all-powerful male establishment.

    Perhaps in years to come, Chloe will be labelled as a bolshy feminazi who bludgeoned men into submitting to political correctness gone mad.

    When all she wants to do is play rugby.

Participate now!

Don’t have an account yet? Register yourself now and be a part of our community!