Legalise Drugs

Please treat other members in a constructive and friendly manner: Our Community Guidelines.
  • Edit Note from Horizon Feb 18 2020:


    Copied Nora's earlier posts about drugs from the sentencing thread here into Bryan's thread, The first paragraph is from bryan, the rest is Norra's. Sorry for messing about Bryan's first post!


    Quote from bryanluc

    Nora recently posted a strong argument for legalising drugs, an argument I have some sympathy with. I have however personal experience of the damaging effects of drug taking and I don't think I would like them to be more available.


    There was a recent biopic on TV about Whitney Houston and when you saw the devastating effect drugs had on her you would want to ban them completely for destroying such talent


    I would attack this slightly differently and rather than locking people up for longer I would work more on rehabilitation and help. Terrorists need a separate place rather than a wing in mainstream prisons. A mental hospital type environment, a Prison hospital and education (de radicalization) centres and no reduced sentences. I don't see the point in locking people up for life, it's a waste of money. We should bring back the death penality for some people but there has to be a strict process and guidelines so it really is those proven guilty and have committed mass murder or something. Even a Guantanamo bay type place would a better place to terrorists up, but I mean true terrorists not these new invented ones that fall within that category.


    (snip)


    Drug crimes need abolishing apart from those doing the big time dealing and running around with firearms etc. There are many addicts locked up who are the victims, a victim of addiction who should not be in prison. And others, lower down dealers are simply earning a living without harming anyone. You average college drug dealer or neighbour that that does a little on the side to support ones own habit or boost their low income. We need addiction centres for them and if they have committed a crime then a prison type addiction centre. They are ill, not criminals. Drug dealing needs dividing up into serious and those lower down the chain simply earning a living or have a drug habit. That would reduce most burglary's and shoplifting.


    (snip)


    (snip)


    The whole system needs reforming into a different kind of system and divided up, tailored if you like for the individual and the type of crime committed. Most don't even deserve to be locked up and are ill, either mentally or other, or are a victim of society and their surroundings, upbringing or whatever. The only crimes where people should be locked up in the current prison type system are those that have committed violent firearms and knife attacks, rape, physical assault, slavery and prostitution, people smuggling and racketeering etc. Wherever serious harm has come to others.


    (snip)


    There is nothing wrong with taking drugs we all take drugs whether that is anti depressants, opioids, nicotine, alcohol etc etc. Taking drugs and drug abuse are two separate things. Society is the problem. Legalise all drugs and open up Amsterdam style coffee shops, needle exchanges etc. In Amsterdam they have heroin addicts going to the clinic in the morning getting their fix and then go off to work for the day just like anyone else. Perfectly functioning addicts just like the business man that sits in the pub at lunchtime and has a few pints and then goes home in the evening and drinks a bottle of wine or something. Or maybe he works as a JP and pops out to his chambers for a quick sniffter and then after work put his baby nappy on or gimp mask on and goes to visit his dominatrix prostitute before heading home to the wife. The biggest drug addicts work in London's financial sector. Most in the stock exchange will be on cocaine. I bet there is a fair whack used in the parliament toilets also. It will either be that or a bottle of gin in the desk drawer.


    The majority of addicts are either ill and have been prescribed them or they are taking drugs recreationally. Not everyone is homeless and addicted to smack and having to go and do a burglary or shoplift to feed their habit and bring some comfort to being homeless. Most would welcome prison as it's a roof over your head and some food. If they are lucky they may even get some drug treatment or may put themselves in to go cold turkey accept there are an abundance of drugs inside.


    Legalize all drugs is what I say and sell and supply clean drugs. The tax from it could help pay to fix other issues in society and removes the criminal element. There's skunk out there that has glass silicates sprayed on to it while growing to gain weight FFS and people renting homes and hacking the electricity supply to feed grow rooms which affects the rest of us as costs go up. The drug problem is one of the easier things to deal with. Nobody has the right to tell others what they can and can't do to their own body. A life of crime is not always an easy option. It's a competitive market and not only do you have to watch out for the law but you have to watch out for rivals and gangs. Do you think it's easy walking into the wrong postcode and having to watch your back. You may even be forced into carrying a knife or gun because of circumstances. Your delusional if you think it's easy. Those in legit business only have to watch out for rivals and there is less chance of getting stabbed or shot or having your head kicked in. That's the easy option to get a non criminal job if the jobs where there and paid enough for people to be able survive with a reasonable level of comfort.


    F**ing knife crime in Britain, that could be abolished overnight. Boom.....gone. Legalize drugs, open coffee shops / drug bars. Most would go and work in those places or in the factories growing weed or pressing pills. Kill two birds with one stone. And not only that there would be huge benefits to be made from the tax. Also open more addiction centres where ex addicts can go and get employment. Open clubs back up so people can go and rave and legally pop a clean Ecstasy pill or whatever rather than forcing it onto the streets and people having to break into premises for an illegal rave or hide behind closed doors. More employment to be made there. Tonnes of clubs have closed down over the last few years which is driving folk into snobby wine bars where cocaine rules and coke can be taken with alcohol easier. The two go hand in hand quite nicely. Most of the City bars and clubs will be full of coke heads in their suits. The work hard and play hard types. If a bar got raided in say Canary Wharf there would be a load of the stuff found but these users are not the main target for enforcement because they all work in high paid jobs.


    Edited once, last by Horizon: Merged 2 posts created by Norra Batty, bryanluc into this post. ().

  • She did indeed and I was intending to create a thread about out of that post. I will find it, then move this into the politics/health forum.

    If my post is in this colour, it is a moderator decision. Please abide by it.

  • So, if alcohol had never been made legal, would we drink less or more of it. I think that answers the question !

    White lives matter

  • So, if alcohol had never been made legal, would we drink less or more of it. I think that answers the question !

    Alcohol has a powerful government lobby, drugs don't

    Why do you think the tax on alcohol remains so low despite the added cost it imposes on the NHS

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • Alcohol has a powerful government lobby, drugs don't

    Why do you think the tax on alcohol remains so low despite the added cost it imposes on the NHS

    LOL. Tax revenue from alcohol last year was £10.7bn, NHS related costs was £3.5bn. As a believer that the country/world is very overpopulated, I don't have an issue with people killing themselves, but unfortunately the taxes raised from such substances will never be spent on the infrastructure to support them.

    White lives matter

  • LOL. Tax revenue from alcohol last year was £10.7bn, NHS related costs was £3.5bn. As a believer that the country/world is very overpopulated, I don't have an issue with people killing themselves, but unfortunately the taxes raised from such substances will never be spent on the infrastructure to support them.

    I wonder who came up with the figures, the alcohol lobby perhaps

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • https://www.statista.com/stati…s-alcohol-duties-by-type/


    https://www.google.com/search?…&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


    NOW SMOKING - Revenue £12bn, cost to NHS £6bn.


    Drinkers and smokers are a tax cash cow to the government, and they are doing them a great service by dying younger. The younger we die, the less pension is paid out. The problem is that governments haven't invested the tax correctly. I supposed it could be argued from a financial point of view that legalising drugs could have the same positive effect on society, but it's a big risk.

    White lives matter

  • From your link


    "Alcohol is estimated to cost the NHS around £3.5bn per year, which amounts to £120 for every taxpayer, according to the latest available figures from the HSCIC. Overall, treating alcohol-related conditions costs the NHS about 3.6% of its annual budget.

    Treatment for alcohol dependence is one of the direct costs the NHS incurs. People dependent on alcohol make up 6% of the adult population in England, and about 115,000 received specialist alcohol treatment in 2013-14.

    As a result, 195,000 prescriptions were written in primary care and NHS hospitals to treat alcohol dependence in 2014, at a cost of £3.4m. This cost has increased by nearly 80% over the decade, from £1.9m in 2004, measured at 2014 prices.

    Advertisement

    The total cost of alcohol harm to society is estimated to be much higher, if the direct healthcare costs are combined with those of crime and lost productivity in the workplace."


    The cost of prescriptions was estimated at £3,4 millions in 2014 and must be higher than that now. Add that to the £3.5 billion and the cost has already doubled and I'm guessing that there are other costs that are hidden

    The other link is German

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • Yes, I am aware of that, but the tax revenue from alcohol is 12.4bn, meaning the country is nearly £9bn better off. I suspect that doesn't include the taxes paid by the people who who work for companies producing the product, but I'm not sure. I am not defending the industry, or the people who drink alcohol, I am simply supplying you with figures. Like I said before, any product that shortens the life of human beings should not be derided. The longer we live, the more it costs the tax payer, and the relative little it costs in treating patients is more than off set by the additional pension payments, and long term care costs if these people were to live extended lives. I often wonder why the government don't reduce the price of cigarettes and alcohol in order they can eventually save some money. I suppose that wouldn't look good at the next general election though ^^

    White lives matter

  • Yes, I am aware of that, but the tax revenue from alcohol is 12.4bn, meaning the country is nearly £9bn better off. I suspect that doesn't include the taxes paid by the people who who work for companies producing the product, but I'm not sure. I am not defending the industry, or the people who drink alcohol, I am simply supplying you with figures. Like I said before, any product that shortens the life of human beings should not be derided. The longer we live, the more it costs the tax payer, and the relative little it costs in treating patients is more than off set by the additional pension payments, and long term care costs if these people were to live extended lives. I often wonder why the government don't reduce the price of cigarettes and alcohol in order they can eventually save some money. I suppose that wouldn't look good at the next general election though ^^

    I can't support your let them all die philosophy

    Spent most of my working life saving lives

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • I can't support your let them all die philosophy

    Spent most of my working life saving lives

    So the alternative is to ban alcohol and fags, allow people to live longer in order they eventually die of a horrible decease anyway, increase the population even further, and have to put up with all the additional consequences that follow. I appreciate the facts I put forward appear a little heartless, but they are factual. We were never designed or meant to live as long as we do, and our extended lives are causing society and nature all sorts of problems. I have always been an advocate of involuntary euthanasia, but appreciate most people find this concept hard to swallow, however, the last thing we should be doing is attempting to prolong the average life of human beings.

    White lives matter

  • Nora recently posted a strong argument for legalising drugs, an argument I have some sympathy with. I have however personal experience of the damaging effects of drug taking and I don't think I would like them to be more available

    There was a recent biopic o TV about Whitney Houston and when you saw the devastating effect drugs had on her you would want to ban them completely for destroying such talent

    I don't approve of drug-taking in the least, but I'm afraid that prohibition does not work. It didn't work in America with alcohol and it isn't working with drugs either. All it does is boost criminality and prices.


    Drug takers need support, not a prison sentence.

    Protect the vulnerable and get back to work

  • I don't approve of drug-taking in the least

    Define drug taking. We all naturally produce a small amounts of THC in our bodies as do we alcohol, and just before we die our body releases a large dose of DMT. Do you drink coffee...caffeine is a drug. What about pharma prescribed by your doctor. Some of those are far worse than what you will get on the street. Things like anti cholesterol drugs (Simavstian) are particularly nasty when taken long term not only to ones body as side effects but mood swings too and they are openly dished out to many. Anti psychotics are borderline on par with taking LSD or anti anxiety /depressant drugs are uppers and downers. A very large chunk of today's drug addicts are only addicted to opioids prescribed to them by their doctor for pain relief. If you have long term chronic pain then you might be on the clinical version of heroin 'morphine' either in tablet form or liquid syrup or maybe your given hill-billy heroin in the form of Oxycontin or stronger....Fentanyl maybe, cancer suffers will given things like that.


    Many wouldn't consider themselves drug addicts because they where prescribed drugs by a legalised drug dealers that goes by the name of a doctor. These are the kind of people that are more prone to becoming addicted to Opioids because they don't understand drugs. Rather than take control of themselves they put themselves at the mercy of the doctor who are not always right or know what's best for you. At the end of the day all drugs whether legal or illegal are here to stay and they all have side affects. So why not take it out of the hands of the criminals and supply clinical versions, and by clinical I mean clean of impurities and save life's instead and at the same time make money from the tax made from it as we do alcohol and cigarettes, coffee and many other drugs openly sold.


    Street drugs where never as much of a problem until they became criminalised, your right prohibition does not work. I think end of the 60"s early 70's IIRC that was introduced and things went downhill from there. Shortly afterwards and things like Heroin took hold of the streets and there was that big 'Just say no' campaign. Make weed illegal along come legal highs and now we have far worse products on the street and in prisons....spice. It wasn't as big a problem before. Before that it was all mostly flower power love peace and happiness rather than big time criminal gangs and business.


    Also lets not forget that all the big tax evaders including those in government hide behind the big time drug dealing and other crimes. They both have offshore bank accounts in the same places, like British Virgin Islands and Panama so kind of I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. Money laundering and tax evasion works on both sides of the law which is why I think it's allowed to continue as is. It's one big huge cover and the banking system and transferring of funds from A to B and the stock market is at the root of it all. The same kind of folk that have large amounts of cocaine delivered to them on scooters to their city offices. The City of London is a law to itself.

  • why not take it out of the hands of the criminals and supply clinical versions, and by clinical I mean clean of impurities and save life's instead and at the same time make money from the tax made from it as we do alcohol and cigarettes, coffee and many other drugs openly sold.

    That's exactly what I am advocating, Nora.

    Protect the vulnerable and get back to work

  • I don't approve of drug-taking in the least, but I'm afraid that prohibition does not work. It didn't work in America with alcohol and it isn't working with drugs either. All it does is boost criminality and prices.


    Drug takers need support, not a prison sentence.

    Whilst I can see where your coming from, I don't agree. America banned something that was already legal, making it "prohibition". Drugs are already illegal.


    I believe drug takers should be punished, not supported. It's no secret heroin etc is addictive, so when somebody starts taking it they deserve what they get. Public funds shouldn't be wasted on people who ignore the obvious. half the problem is that we don't punish drug takers. Whilst it may be illegal, I wonder how often anyone actually gets punished for it? If we gave drug takers harsh sentences in solitary confinement, then possibly there wouldn't be so many addicts.

    White lives matter

  • I believe drug takers should be punished

    I know of someone who's son was persuaded by peer group pressure to start smoking marijuana aged 14 eventually progressing to heroin and other substances

    How would you punish them?

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • In all my many years dealing with criminals a vast proportion of crimes and anti social behaviour had a root cause from alcohol.

  • I know of someone who's son was persuaded by peer group pressure to start smoking marijuana aged 14 eventually progressing to heroin and other substances

    How would you punish them?

    Severely. Probably a year in solitary. It sounds harsh, a bit like cutting the hands off of shop lifters, but it works

    White lives matter

  • In all my many years dealing with criminals a vast proportion of crimes and anti social behaviour had a root cause from alcohol.

    I am not defending bad behaviour as a result of alcohol, but I think you will find serious crime is very often a result of drugs, whereas minor crime is more likely to be as a result of alcohol

    White lives matter

  • Severely. Probably a year in solitary. It sounds harsh, a bit like cutting the hands off of shop lifters, but it works

    It doesn't work,something similar was tried, the addiction is too strong The first opportunity 0 straight back on the drugs

    Similarly a while back a TV documentary about the homeless featured an alcoholic and the cameras followed him. Eventually he went to prison for shoplifting and they still followed him, unrecognisable - cleaned up and promising to stop the drink for ever

    Released, he went straight back to the park to find his drinking mates

    The only way to stop is fr the individual to want to stop, that is the AA philosophy. Hard approach does not work

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • I am not defending bad behaviour as a result of alcohol, but I think you will find serious crime is very often a result of drugs, whereas minor crime is more likely to be as a result of alcohol

    A strange reply considering i have based my response on my actual work experience...

  • A strange reply considering i have based my response on my actual work experience...

    Alcohol, can be a very dangerous substance in the wrong hands. Fact people have being caused serious injury, wrecked lives, even death as a result of this extremely deadly substance. I seen many instances as a result of excessive drinking in the wrong hands, a bit like given a weapon to the wrong irresponsible person. What say everyone?

  • It doesn't work,something similar was tried, the addiction is too strong The first opportunity 0 straight back on the drugs

    Similarly a while back a TV documentary about the homeless featured an alcoholic and the cameras followed him. Eventually he went to prison for shoplifting and they still followed him, unrecognisable - cleaned up and promising to stop the drink for ever

    Released, he went straight back to the park to find his drinking mates

    The only way to stop is fr the individual to want to stop, that is the AA philosophy. Hard approach does not work

    So if we legalise it then, we just end up with more homeless people littering the streets because all their money is spent on drugs. These people are no good for society and only cause a problem. I'm sorry, but perhaps euthanasia is the best answer.

    White lives matter

  • So if we legalise it then, we just end up with more homeless people littering the streets because all their money is spent on drugs. These people are no good for society and only cause a problem. I'm sorry, but perhaps euthanasia is the best answer.

    I think you're right but I couldn't support such action. If only we could come up with a way to persuade all addicts to want to give up. I wonder if hypnosis would do it

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • Alcohol, can be a very dangerous substance in the wrong hands. Fact people have being caused serious injury, wrecked lives, even death as a result of this extremely deadly substance. I seen many instances as a result of excessive drinking in the wrong hands, a bit like given a weapon to the wrong irresponsible person. What say everyone?

    Yep, your right, but with alcohol we are where we are. The vast majority of people who drink alcohol aren't a problem to society, whereas hard drugs are a very different case. Research now shows alcohol related crime is going down, as younger people more rarely see it as being "big" getting drunk. Comparing alcohol and hard drugs is like comparing a Ford Cortina with a Ferrari

    White lives matter

  • The vast majority of people who drink alcohol aren't a problem to society

    I'm not so sure I agree with that. Weekend nights everywhere impose great problems on medics, police, ambulance service,and police

    Then there are the extra demands imposed on the NHS by the effects of alcohol

    If They Can Do It So Can I

  • I'm not so sure I agree with that. Weekend nights everywhere impose great problems on medics, police, ambulance service,and police

    Then there are the extra demands imposed on the NHS by the effects of alcohol

    and as pointed out, such costs are paid for three times over in taxes. Like I said, we are we are with alcohol, and it's not going to be banned. I accept that if it had just been invented, it wouldn't be legalised, but as an entire industry relies on it, I can't see it going away. Anyway, what would I do with my afternoons if the pub didn't exist, because I'm not staying at home talking to the old woman !

    White lives matter

    Edited once, last by Bibbles ().

  • I think you're right but I couldn't support such action. If only we could come up with a way to persuade all addicts to want to give up. I wonder if hypnosis would do it

    If life was that easy we wouldn't have any addictions or criminals, but it isn't. Our humanity stops us from removing undesirables from society in the vague hope they will reform, but the reality is that they rarely do. The simple answer is a deterrent. We condone such places as Saudi for cutting peoples hands off for shop lifting, but the reality is that it works. Tell people they will be executed for driving over 30mph, and believe me, they won't.

    White lives matter