Picture quality standards: what next?

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    I have been fascinated by the huge improvement in picture quality standards on TVs over recent years. First HD, then UHD, then HDR and so on. As for 3D, I never thought that would catch on because the glasses are a big turn-off.

    However, it looks like the Japanese have found a way of overcoming the need for glasses. Could 3D be about to make a comeback?

    https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2020/04/28/nhk…e-3d-tv-system/

  • The picture quality maybe improving but the content is not. Content is king. I have been watching some old B&W films and some old Westerns, some stuff in 4.3 and the storylines and acting is so much better. It's funny as I have also been watching some old Miami Vice and London's Burning on Freeview. Way to much time and money is spent concentrating on effects these days rather than the story. The main reason we have HD and UHD is to accommodate the bigger screens. It's also a way of trying to reduce piracy because of the file sizes. Maybe as more digital online services start to take over they might change from subscription based to charging per bandwidth used in which case with the larger sizes it could be a way to make more money. Where the picture quality really makes a difference is with nature / wildlife documentary's. Sports too but I'm not a sports fan.

    How about restoring some old footage. This is where it really makes a noticeable difference.

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    And when we start getting into HDR it is then no longer realistic and things start to look fake, almost cartoonish or 3D. It loses it's character with the exception of wildlife programmes. I mentioned 3D, we have never really had true 3D TV, the screen is still two dimensional. We have had Stereoscopic 3D which gives an illusion of 3D and we have 3D modelling and animation but that is not really 3D TV. When we have holographic images in the room with us like Princess leia on Star Wars is when we can call it 3D.

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  • Yes, I thought we would eventually get 3D via holographic pictures, but the problem with holograms at the moment seems to be that the holographic images look like...well, holograms! They do not look real.

    I very much hope that the Japanese work makes a real difference and the 3D images are realistic.

  • I remember when HD were the current buzz words

    Walking into the old Comet store they had a TV demonstrating the difference, one half of the screen was HD -the other was the old screen

    I could not see any difference but then I come from the days of the old 4 hundred and whatever it was with it's lines rolling around the screen

  • I remember when HD were the current buzz words

    Walking into the old Comet store they had a TV demonstrating the difference, one half of the screen was HD -the other was the old screen

    I could not see any difference but then I come from the days of the old 4 hundred and whatever it was with it's lines rolling around the screen

    405 lines, yes, I remember it well.

    But the pictures I can get, even without HDR, are superb in UHD. Almost like looking out of a crystal clear window.

  • 405 lines, yes, I remember it well.

    But the pictures I can get, even without HDR, are superb in UHD. Almost like looking out of a crystal clear window.

    I don't know what label our current Toshiba carries. We have it wall mounted and with crystal clear picture it's like looking through a window

    From memory it was a £299 Tesco buy

  • I remember having to convert footage from 4.3 to 16.9 anamorphic so you would either end up letter boxing or clipping some footage. Back in the day of analogue and 4.3 PAL, NTSC and SECAM systems there was compatibility problems across countries depending on what system a country used. Different frame sizes and it was also linked to frame rate so either 25fps for PAL or 30fps for NTSC and the scan lines of the old Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) monitors.

    That's where your 405 lines come into play, it's the lines or speed of lines scanning down the screen (scan lines) as the RGB coloured electrons are fired at the inside of the screen onto a phosphorus surface making up the picture or before that it was just the black and white or monochrome. Then interlacing was introduced with an odd and even field which kind of doubled them up so you got a smoother picture. Instead of the scan line running around the block it with give the illusion of scanning down and then back up before going back down. You can probably remember looking through the lens of a camera or taking a photo of an old CRT TV screen and you would catch those scan lines.

    The introduction of digital and HD has also eliminated the cross compatibility issue across borders though we seem to have held onto the frame rate as it's 50fps in the UK versus 60fps in the US. I think it's to do with the transmission signal and legalities. Not so much of an issue on computers or the internet but in television production it is. You can't have it too fast or it might affect epileptics and not only that it literally becomes a brainwashing machine as we are brainwashed into believing. It's the strobe or flicker effect having an effect on the brain. Now we we have thousands of little LED's switching on and off at a rapid rate.

  • though we seem to have held onto the frame rate as it's 50fps in the UK versus 60fps in the US.

    The frame rates chosen were due to the frequency of the line. Particularly on old valve sets there was line frequency ripple imposed on the scanning amplitude as the power supplies inside the sets were not regulated. ( The line stage had a sort of regulation by adjusting the tube bias on the scanning valve with a varistor but it was pretty sloppy ) By having the frame rate notionally the same as the line frequency the "beat" on the picture size was minimised. Many larger sets continued to use valves in the line output stage even when the rest of the set was fully transistorised so the beat problem persisted.

    Even with interlace the 50Hz flicker was too much for me ( I can get strobe induced migrains: The full works with visual disturbance, head aches, nausea and blinding multicolour rolling shapes) so I upgraded to a 28" 100Hz Philips Matchline. This used a frame store that was scanned to the tube at double speed. Even then I could still detect flicker out of the corner of my eye but it was minimal.

    The same store was used to implement full PAL decode so the colour strobing on check patterns and thin lines was eliminated and could also be set to filter noise of say video tapes to clean up the picture.

  • ( I can get strobe induced migrains: The full works with visual disturbance, head aches, nausea and blinding multicolour rolling shapes)

    Yikes that's sounds awful. I wouldn't mind the psychedelic visual disturbances :) but as for the rest no thanks.

    Thank you for the clarification that makes sense and I think I understand what your saying. The varistor was that like a potentiometer type dial device where one could tweak the resistance levels. A bit like upping the voltage on a vape to push more heat through the coil accept your tweaking the ohms level. No MOSFETs in them days to regulate current. Philips are a genius company and I have always held them in high regard. They often lead the way for others to follow.

  • The varistor was that like a potentiometer type dial device where one could tweak the resistance levels

    A varistor varies its resistance according to the voltage across it. As such it can be used as a regulator. In this case as the scan amplitude grew in response to the increasing supply voltage the tube bais was reduced to try and compensate.

    Anyhow now most people have moved to digital sets without CRTs the issue doesn't occur.

    In terms of new standards I don't really see much on the immediate horizon after 4K My eye sight is not good and I can't readily tell the difference between digital SD and HD as the Sony (1080) does a good job of upscaling. Only close to the screen can you see the difference, mainly in the artifacts round channel logos and captions on SD. The 42" screen is quite big enough in our small lounge viewed from about ten feet away and going up to 4K is unlikely to make much difference.

    The DVD recorder / player has RGB component feed in progressive mode to the TV and that makes everything much crisper even at 570p

  • In terms of new standards I don't really see much on the immediate horizon after 4K My eye sight is not good and I can't readily tell the difference between digital SD and HD as the Sony (1080) does a good job of upscaling. Only close to the screen can you see the difference, mainly in the artifacts round channel logos and captions on SD. The 42" screen is quite big enough in our small lounge viewed from about ten feet away and going up to 4K is unlikely to make much difference.

    The two developments I think will happen is 3D without glasses, as I mentioned in the first post of this thread, and 8K. However, I can't see 8K being adopted by most of the population. Only the wealthy with large houses and public venues such as pubs will adopt this technology. Mind you, where the 8K content will come from remains to be seen. Just the sport, perhaps, at a greatly inflated price.

  • I can't see 8K being adopted by most of the population

    Well, having said that, I then find this article that suggests that viewers with 8K could take advantage of other features such as the ability to zoom in on the picture being displayed.

    I suppose that some sports addicts might like that, but perhaps this would turn out to be a five-minute wonder. How many people actually used Sky's alternative angle shots feature when watching the footie? Certainly none of my contacts who follow football have used this feature in practice.

    I hadn't appreciated that other features might be available with 8K, so I think I will reserve my judgement until I understand all the possibilities.

    https://www.csimagazine.com/csi/8K-and-the…f-streaming.php

    [EXTRACT]

    8K could allow for some exciting new features for viewers. It’s not just about clearer, sharper images – although these are certainly in store – it’s also about offering new user experiences, such as being able to zoom in on different parts of the screen so viewers can clearly spot for themselves if there’s a foul in a sporting event, or to hunt for clues in a crime drama. It will also allow for more realistic, interactive VR experiences. This type of content can be used as a differentiator by early adopting broadcasters to attract and retain viewers in the competitive marketplace.

  • How many people actually used Sky's alternative angle shots feature when watching the footie? Certainly none of my contacts who follow football have used this feature in practice.

    Same with Sky Sports F1. They used to and possibly still do offer multiple camera angles but I have never experimented or even been tempted. There are a lot of features available at the moment which most people myself included never use or need. 3D was a waste of time but it became almost impossible to purchase a TV without it at one time, now fallen out of favour again.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • The porn industry might be able to make use of a Zoom in feature LOL It's getting silly now and all they are doing is introducing new things to keep sales going. One watches TV (The clue's is in the expression) to relax, sit back and watch. Not turning it into a job of switching angles, zooming in and anything else they can think up. What's next...choosing your actors like characters in a game and then a computer algorithm superimposes that character over what your watching. And what happens when more than one person is watching the TV, do we have family arguments over which camera angle to choose from and /or what to zoom into.

  • On choosing actors, that probably is on the way Norra.

    What was it, the Black Mirror series on Netflix, where you could choose the ending or something like that? Lots more like that on the way.

    I agree though that tv should be a sit back and relax environment which is why I still await for true intelligent/smart tv that really does know what you want to watch at a certain time and presents it to you, rather than having to wade through menus as on current streamers.

  • Yeh that's the big issue here. Available content there is none and filesizes are way to big to download or even stream and folk struggle with 4K. For me personally although I have a 4K capable TV I am more than happy watching a movie streamed through my AV Receiver that can upscale (Qdeo) from 1080 to 4K and fed by HDMI 2.2 and ARC to my TV although that is not true 4K and scaled to fit when upscaled. TBH for the majority of content I am more than happy downloading 720 content to upscale to 1080. Sound is more important than picture to me and I want 6 channels for big movies. I mostly feed my movies from either my computer or NAS via DLNA on my Pan DVR which is plugged into the receiver and feeds into the TV. Most of the rubbish TVs are coming out with these days are not necessary. A TV is only needed as a Freeview tuner and monitor. Actually even the tuner could be removed so one no longer has a TV aka BBC and is only a monitor so no longer required to pay a license ;)

    If you have an AV Receiver then picture control and colour can all be done from there and fed through. It's better to disable all the extra picture controls on a TV to get a better picture. They are only there to make them look good in the store under store lighting and to make sales, black level, edge sharpness, back lighting adjust and the rest of it. At home all that stuff makes the picture worse.

    The other issue is the TV's they are getting bigger all the time and smaller size screens are disappearing. Have you ever tried to get a 32" or smaller non caravan or hotel TV for a bedroom or somewhere with all the smart features. I do not want a new TV bigger than 40" and I also don't want a TV that comes with a built in camera and microphone. I managed to get the last Panasonic before they all went down that dark path. I would have to take it apart to remove those parts or de-solder items now. I also want a standard IR remote control whereas many manufacturers now want people to accept a phone app as a remote. And if it does come with an IR remote I don't want one with a microphone and voice activation features. Yet again I would have to take it apart to disable and I don't need any Alexa crap. With things like that spying on users there is more chance of them grassing you up for not paying a TV license and/or selling details on to debt collectors.

    See the they can dangle 8K as the carrot on a string but one needs to know what else they are throwing in with the tech because it's not all good and not always in the consumers best interest. More often that not it benefits the commercial infrastructure and we pay for it in more ways than one.

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  • BT say they will be bringing a ‘cinematic look’ to the FA Cup Final. I’m not sure whether this is just hype or whether those state of the art cameras will really make such a difference.

    https://www.tvbeurope.com/live-productio…to-fa-cup-final

    ‘The broadcaster will be employing specialist cameras at pitchside during the match.

    “The Sony Venice cameras we’ve been using in our Champions League coverage is something we’ll be using for the FA Cup Final,” BT Sport’s chief operating officer Jamie Hindhaugh tells TVBEurope. “We’ll also have Spidercam and Heli tele.

    “This is a big centrepiece game and we’re the host broadcaster, so we will do it justice. It will be available in 4K, HDR and Dolby Atmos. We’ll also be working remotely, as we did for last year’s final, which in itself is a huge achievement,” Hindhaugh adds.

    BT Sport is the latest broadcaster to bring a cinematic feel to its football coverage. Earlier this year LaLiga and its production partner Mediapro introduced new state-of-the-art pitchside cameras that take viewers right into the heart of goal celebrations.

    In March Sky Deutschland used the ARRI ALEXA Mini camera during its coverage of the UEFA Champions League between Bayern Munich and Lazio.’

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