Will officer Derek Chauvin get a fair trial ?.

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  • Which begs the question of why we follow and copy everything they do minus the right to bare arms. The world would be a better place if every country in the world shunned the the USA including all their tech, media and other trade. We would better if we all grouped together including China and Russia.

    If you are suggesting that China and Russia are shining examples of how Countries treat their population, there is something very suspect about your political alignment.

    Communism doesn't work and never will.

    The Voice of Reason

  • Which begs the question of why we follow and copy everything they do minus the right to bare arms. The world would be a better place if every country in the world shunned the the USA including all their tech, media and other trade. We would better if we all grouped together including China and Russia.

    I certainly have no aspirations to be American in fact I can't think of anything worse even death would be more favorable.

  • America is a very backward and violent country in that respect they think they are all outlaws and gunslingers. :D

    Which begs the question of why we follow and copy everything they do minus the right to bare arms. The world would be a better place if every country in the world shunned the the USA including all their tech, media and other trade. We would better if we all grouped together including China and Russia.

    Hmmmm.... I'm not sure about China and Russia, but if I get you rightly, you are proposing that a group of countries join together in mutual co-operation, for the peace, prosperity and cultural benefit and unity of all.

    Such a bloc would have common goals and ambitions.... would co-operate with each other. They could even have their own Parliament to make decisions on issues that are common to them all. Each country in the bloc could vote for their own representatives to speak for them in a specially dedicated chamber.

    Each member nation would have an automatic veto, meaning that all the decisions in the Parliament can only be passed by unanimous agreement, ensuring that no one country could become more powerful than any of the others. It would be pure democracy...!!

    Each country would still have its own independence, to pass its own laws, form its own government and maintain its own economy. The bloc would only pass rules that pertain to matters of common importance.

    What a wonderful thing that would be, eh..?

    Such a bloc could even have its own flag. Perhaps it might look something like this......

    a-circle-of-stars.gif

  • Not at all but it's numbers and sometimes it's better to keep your enemy close.

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

    I've always loved that quote. It's popularly ascribed to Al Pacino as a line he spoke in The Godfather, but actually, it goes back much further to the Chinese Military strategist Sun Tzu who wrote The Art of War in the 5th century.

    Other things he wrote in his book that exist to this day include:

    What does not destroy you makes you stronger

    The enemy of my friend is my enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friend of my enemy is my enemy.

    He had warfare pretty well weighed off but seldom gets mentioned when great military strategists are discussed.

  • Nah wouldn't work. That's already been experimented with and has failed miserably. :D

    The Voice of Reason

  • Nah wouldn't work. That's already been experimented with and has failed miserably. :D

    It's still alive and kicking, despite all predictions that its demise is imminent. And lots of British businesses are moving there, so they must think there's still some mileage in it.

    Why UK Companies Are Moving To Europe Post Brexit

    As Mark Twain once responded to an American press article: "It seems that rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated".

  • But getting back on topic (I only get into thread drift when prompted by other people's posts. I don't start it, but I'm not going to back down when a clear challenge is thrown into the ring).

    I would think it would be pretty easy seeing as not one of them did a single thing to stop Chauvin killing that man .

    Two were on his lower body and the other was stood by a threatening presence for anyone thinking to stop them.

    Interesting thought.

    I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

    Firstly, any charges that the other officers were complicit in George Floyd's death to a criminal standard would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Secondly, what would the officers be charged with...? On the face of it, conspiracy may be considered, but for that to stick, firstly, Chauvin would have to have been convicted of murder. But he wasn't. He was convicted of manslaughter, which brings into doubt that he intended to kill George Floyd. For a conspiracy to take place, there would have to have been some level of planning between the officers, but as Chauvin didn't intend to kill Floyd, there would be plausible deniability that there was any planning involved, and therefore, no conspiracy.

    All sorts of plea bargaining may come into play and if the defendants were happy to put their hands up to lesser charges and take the hit, a guilty plea might save them from a prison sentence. Just a thought.

    The officers on his lower body may attempt to claim that from where they were, they were obscured by Chauvin from seeing the level of distress that George Floyd was in, and couldn't hear his pleas for air. The one who was standing by might claim he had been given a job to do, to prevent the arresting officers being attacked by the crowd. He can claim he was obeying orders.

    So......... conspiracy is unlikely to be a part of the charges unless there is some interpretation of it in American law that differs greatly from British standards.

    Culpable Manslaughter is possible, but in UK, Gross Negligence Manslaughter would be more accurate. Gross Negligence Manslaughter is committed where a death is a result of a grossly negligent (though otherwise lawful) act or omission on the part of the defendant.

    I would estimate that the other officers were negligent. They could have stopped Chauvin at any time... .... if it can be proved that they knew that what he was doing was killing George Floyd.

    The nub of this one would be in the word "grossly". This is open to interpretation and could be argued quite vehemently by the defence. And don't forget.... it is beholden on the prosecution to prove the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendant does not have to prove his innocence. If the prosecution can't do that, then the others walk free......... and that would send out all the wrong signals to other bad cops watching the outcome.

    If "Gross" negligence cannot be proven, then it comes down to bog-standard negligence which is not a criminal offence........ more of a police disciplinary offence. The cops might lose their jobs, but they wouldn't go to jail.

    Of course, I'm applying British standards here. I don't know enough about American law or due process to be more certain.

    One last thought: If this were to go to jury trial, being America, it may be that the general mood in the country is that the justice system has got it's "pound of flesh". Chauvin is taking the big hit. And rightly so. The others involved are small fish and in as much as convicting Chauvin headed off mass civil unrest from the African American community, "Going Light" on the others might quell the threat of civil unrest from the White Supremacists who might think this is all going too far.

    Turn responsibility for punishing these three over to the police system to deal with it internally and sack them. They're punished without any need for "burden of proof" standards. I think BLM will accept that and this all dies down.


    Chauvin was not the decent, honest cop just doing his job, striving valiantly to protect decent people, the American way of life and mom's apple pie. He is a nasty, brutal, racist thug who has been rightly convicted of a vicious, cold-blooded crime.

    America may just give the others the benefit of the doubt and, by removing them from the job that enabled their activities, be sending out enough of a message to tell other policemen and women of that ilk in America to change their ways. Because change should come out of this. It has to if America is to confront endemic racism in the police, and start down the long road of putting a stop to these sorts of killings.

  • The BLM movement is an Anti-White racist organisation. They will not be happy until it's made an offence to arrest anybody of African American heritage, even if they commit the most horrendous of crimes. The Racist card has become their "get out of jail free" card.

    Mob Violence against the police is the catalyst for racist tension. Obey the law and they won't be arrested ....Simples. :):):)

    The Voice of Reason

  • The BLM movement is an Anti-White racist organisation. They will not be happy until it's made an offence to arrest anybody of African American heritage, even if they commit the most horrendous of crimes. The Racist card has become their "get out of jail free" card.

    Mob Violence against the police is the catalyst for racist tension. Obey the law and they won't be arrested ....Simples. :):):)

    That in itself is Trump-inspired racist nonsense.

    Rant over.

  • That in itself is Trump-inspired racist nonsense.

    Rant over.

    I have some sympathy with Mike’s view, Jenny, because unless we are very gullible, it is hard to ignore that extremists do infiltrate these demonstrations to do what they are good at - destruction.

    However, I am firmly of the view that the BLM movement is supported by a lot of decent, honest people who are disgusted by the way black people are treated in the supposedly civilised society they call the ‘United States of America.

  • I have some sympathy with Mike’s view, Jenny, because unless we are very gullible, it is hard to ignore that extremists do infiltrate these demonstrations to do what they are good at - destruction.

    However, I am firmly of the view that the BLM movement is supported by a lot of decent, honest people who are disgusted by the way black people are treated in the supposedly civilised society they call the ‘United States of America.

    It is true that demonstrations do get infiltrated by agents provocateur. But this is known about. It's well known that this happens and it's pretty well known that these AP's usually come from organisations that oppose the core values of the legitimate demonstrators.

    So why do they blame the legitimate demonstrators when violence breaks out...?

    Hell..... I've been on enough demos and marches to have seen it happening.

    Mike knows full well that BLM is a just cause that exists to overcome racism. And yet he consistently points to them as a racist organisation. It's not just ignorance, it's wilful and deliberate ignorance, spoken with the intention of supporting racists via the negative tactic of denigrating the legitimate protesters.

    It makes an honest debate on the issue impossible.

    He tried this on another forum that we are both members of........ and got his backside well and truly kicked by the entire forum. He mooched away from there and hasn't been seen since. He isn't missed.

    I respect any person's right to an opinion but I also reserve the right to challenge that opinion...... to call people out when it's plain and obvious that they are expressing abhorrent attitudes or opinions, or carrying out straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks, false attribution, Tu Quoque statements, and / or other logical fallacies.

  • Strange that racists, according to Anydots are all heterosexual white people . In her unusual fluffy world no other groups could possibly be raciSt.. ---------- Sad person.

    The Voice of Reason

  • Strange that racists, according to Anydots are all heterosexual white people . In her unusual fluffy world no other groups could possibly be raciSt.. ---------- Sad person.

    Heterosexual white males cannot be insulted or offended according to some they are seen as fair game for ridicule and insults, they have no right to complain are are ridiculed, dismissed and shamed if they do, probably just as well they don't give a fuck and are not all snowflakey about it then. 🤣🤣

  • Strange that racists, according to Anydots are all heterosexual white people . In her unusual fluffy world no other groups could possibly be raciSt.. ---------- Sad person.

    Same logical fallacy that Ron makes elsewhere. Arguing that what is true of the parts must be true of the whole. "Some agents provocateur infiltrate demonstrations and cause trouble so everybody at a demonstration must be there to cause trouble. Therefore, all demonstrators are trouble makers."

    This is called the Fallacy of Composition. And it is exactly that.... a fallacy.

    I do not subscribe to this. I understand that although some white people are racists, not all white people are. I don't fall into the trap of basing an argument on these sort of falsehoods.

    And I challenge him to tell me where I ever said all heterosexual white people are racists. No, don't bother. I never said such a thing so he is also guilty of an Ad Hominem attack, that is, rejecting someone’s argument by attacking the person rather than evaluating their argument on its merits. I don't attack people on the basis of their sexuality.

    Unlike Mike, I have never had posts taken down on this and other forums for homophobic abuse.

    Come on Mike...... try coming up with an argument for a change instead of scattergun hyperbole based on logical fallacies.

  • I understand that although some white people are racists, not all white people are

    The problem is this works both ways no matter what colour your skin is. There are genuine racists among the BLM who have a chip on their shoulder and grudge against the Whites. People should have the intelligence and control to remove any emotions when in battle. Deal with those feelings when you bring them to the surface and deal with them in private or with fellow people that are in the same boat like group therapy to teach and help you deal with emotions. One should be able to switch them on and off like switch. It's called self control.

  • Heterosexual white males cannot be insulted or offended according to some they are seen as fair game for ridicule and insults, they have no right to complain are are ridiculed, dismissed and shamed if they do, probably just as well they don't give a fuck and are not all snowflakey about it then. 🤣🤣I

    Indeed Ron.. I for one make no apologies for being a white heterosexual male.. All this Wokery nonsense will backfire and the population will return to Normal Decency. I will continue to stand up for Heterosexual Men and Women during this time of shameless attacks. Like Democracy, IMHO Nature should not be interfered with.

    In saying that, the American police officer did wrong and will now Quite Correctly, be sentenced to time in prison.

    The Voice of Reason

  • I think people should just learn to treat everyone with due respect and stop focussing on race, gender and all the rest. What is the point of it anyway? If anyone wants to hate people they should look in the mirror and throw insults at themselves. That is just as pointless as hating people you don’t even know because they are not like you.

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