Erasmus - A Government Frontal Attack On UK Education

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  • This thread is not simply about education, it reveals far wider and inherently sinister motives. Nor is the move away from Erasmus to a less advantageous Turing initiative about money and educational progress, as the Johnson government would have people believe.

    Removal of Erasmus is singularly about nationalistic politics and planned isolation - except for the wealthy. It’s about generating an "Us Against Them" culture where choosing whether to listen to "them" is removed as an option.

    Wilhelm Pieck - Walter Ulbricht - Willi Stoph - Erich Honecker. Johnson would fit comfortably into that sequence. He shares their erstwhile determination to isolate their nation from the reality of having a healthy relationship with neighbouring states by reducing contact among those who are our future.

    Johnson believes it to be better for his nationalist ideals that we do not fraternise with people who recognise him for the foolish and incompetent, dishonest and untrustworthy character that he is.

    In 1961 the East German regime built the Berlin Wall to prevent their flawed ideology from being exposed through contact with their fellow citizens in the free West. TV and radio stations were already being jammed but contact between peoples still occurred and this inevitably caused discontent.

    Moving forward sixty years it’s reported that this year the flow of applications from EU candidates for entry to UK universities has slowed to a trickle, a situation financially very damaging to the entire education sector. Without the income from these students, there is an unavoidably damaging effect to our own students: one can be certain that government will not fill the funding gap.

    Until now, 50% of post-graduate applications were from overseas students: this year at some universities, numbers for these flagship earners have dropped to 10%.

    These are lost exports..!!

    University Applications From EU Students Down By 40%

    Is the government concerned..? No, they are not. On the contrary it fits their agenda.

    The refusal of Johnson to allow young UK students to have the advantage of continued participation in the Erasmus programme is his personal version of the Berlin Wall. The deterrence of students from EU to UK institutions squares the circle and ensures that we do not endanger the effects of government propaganda by exposing our youngest and brightest to the truth. It fits well with their lack of effort to negotiate recovery of all those benefits lost to UK travellers through the tragedy of Brexit, making UK residents the second class citizens of Europe.

    Significantly, it’s not only EU students looking elsewhere that runs our country down. Brexit and it’s ambassadors have trashed our reputation abroad. Once, we only ever heard about the Conservatives as "The Nasty Party". Now, Britain itself is referred to as "The Nasty Country".

    The Berlin Wall survived for almost thirty years and in that time it oppressed those it entrapped. Johnson’s psychological barrier must not be permitted to become established and must be challenged at every attempt.

    The excuse that there are ample world-wide university programmes now available is designed to give the impression that Johnson has somehow introduced new opportunities. He has not. Any opportunities now available were already there in addition to Erasmus. What he has done is to ensure that opportunities for the wealthy remain, but that those of modest means are not exposed to what he sees as dangerous influences.

    If the consequences of this sabotage were entirely financial, that would be bad enough, but it goes much further. We are now seen as a discredited, mean-spirited and unpleasant nation where racism is not only tolerated but acceptable to the point where it is becoming normalised, even in our national leader.

    Over many decades, students from all over the world have attended our schools and universities, many going on to be leading figures in their own nations, particularly in politics and industry. They developed a fondness for Britain as an enlightened land of education and personal advancement. That attitude to Britain was greatly influenced by the time they spent here in our education system. Johnson's current attitude to this important group of future leaders will not serve us well in the future.

    Boris Johnson is a prime illustration that one can purchase education, but not intelligence. He can get away with this for a while. He and his Brexiter base has no interest in education, having had only fleeting and mostly unsuccessful contact with it.

  • I wonder if you could explain to us why you think the Turin programme is worse than the Erasmus programme, Jenny?

    The Turin scheme enables students to study all over the world, including the EU, whereas Erasmus confines choice only to the EU. Additionally, students from disadvantageous backgrounds are targeted with the new scheme, which is funded by the government to the tune of £100 million, benefiting 35,000 students.

    In all other respects it is very similar to Erasmus, so what’s the big deal?

  • Education should be free and the only foreign students allowed here for education should have either been invited or have won a scholarship to come here and have free education.

  • Education should be free and the only foreign students allowed here for education should have either been invited or have won a scholarship to come here and have free education.

    Hmmmm.... that would be if education was the only consideration. But there is a cultural value to exchange as well.

    One of the things that made Erasmus so popular was that it gave young students the opportunity to fully immerse themselves in the culture, language and social experience of living in another country while studying. All those I've discussed this with in the Rejoin movement have said that, while the learning was fine, the best aspect of it was living in a country that was different to Britain. It broadened their mind greatly and gave them a perspective they could never get from holidaying or learning from books.

    Erasmus, funded by the EU gave so many Britons this experience, and it is one of those benefits of membership that is being keenly felt by those of undergraduate age. They feel that its been stolen from them.

  • I wonder if you could explain to us why you think the Turin programme is worse than the Erasmus programme, Jenny?

    The Turin scheme enables students to study all over the world, including the EU, whereas Erasmus confines choice only to the EU. Additionally, students from disadvantageous backgrounds are targeted with the new scheme, which is funded by the government to the tune of £100 million, benefiting 35,000 students.

    In all other respects it is very similar to Erasmus, so what’s the big deal?

    Just a little point of nomenclature before I reply to your question.... the British scheme is called Turing (after Alan Turing, the scientist who cracked the Enigma Code), not Turin (which is a city in Northern Italy)


    The Turing scheme is not reciprocal for a start....... something I suggest will probably be welcomed by many Brexiters because it means Britons will get to travel around the world, but the evil empire won't send any of those horrible, smelly foreigners here.


    While the amounts of money allocated for living expenses are broadly the same, under Erasmus, tuition fees were not an issue. The fees were waived for EU students. All participating universities agreed to this as part of the reciprocal arrangement. Waiving fees..... passing up the chance to make money out of education. Fancy that..!! We couldn't have that now, could we..??

    This will not be the case with Turing. Students will now have to pay tuition fees. They will not be covered by the Turing Scheme, although the government has said that it "hopes" those countries "welcoming British students" will voluntarily waive their fees.

    Really...? So we are going to say to the Japanese and Americans and all those Europeans who we have snubbed, insulted and told that we don't want them here, "We want you to waive your tuition fees for us, but if your students come here, they will have to pay." Okaaayyyyyyyyyy........

    Under Turing, British students will still be able to stay in an EU country.... even to study.... for only 90 days out of every 180 unless they obtain a special visa. Which it is not guaranteed everybody will get (depending on circumstances for each individual country)*. No special case for education was negotiated by the British government as part of the Brexit deal. So that was well thought out, then.

    Students under Turing will not get any assistance with health care or travel costs. The reciprocal arrangements for health care in the EU also expired with Brexit and were, again, not re-negotiated for British students by our government.

    Erasmus offered placements for teaching and college staff, and youth workers but the Turing scheme will not.

    Those are the principle points. The National Union of Students criticised Turing as "Being cobbled together as a post-Brexit afterthought. Despite the claims of this government, they have not backed up the Turing scheme with the funding required to support disadvantaged students to study abroad." Hillary Gyebi-Ababio, NUS Vice President for higher education said; "This will harm the futures of thousands of students for years to come."


    *This is what being a third country means. The conditions for a visa for, say, Germany may be different to those to get a visa for Italy. We now have to deal with each country individually. The EU has washed its hands of us.

  • OK, thanks; I see where you are coming from.

    Thanks for correcting me on the name. I did know that and assumed it was a typo, but I see I misspelt it twice! Must have had a senior moment.... :/

    I don't like to be a grammar fiend but sometimes a little comment is appropriate.

    Do you have grandchildren..? Do you think they might go to university one day..? Do you think they would like the opportunity to travel...?

  • I don't think culture even comes into the education side of things unless your doing a degree course on the travel and tourism industry. Culture has nothing to do with education and is a completely separate issue. If someone wants to experience the culture of another country they can take year off or go on holiday.

  • I don't think culture even comes into the education side of things unless your doing a degree course on the travel and tourism industry. Culture has nothing to do with education and is a completely separate issue. If someone wants to experience the culture of another country they can take year off or go on holiday.

    Gap years happen, Norra. Quite frequently. On my course there were several students who had taken one before coming to uni. They all said what a marvellous experience it was.

    Culture does come into education. We can't just allow our young people to become "Factory Fodder".... taught as much as they need to know so that they can then disappear into industry as nothing more than worker drones. That is not what education is.

    Development is a dynamic, interactive process. Every person is unique in interacting with the world around them and what they invoke and receive from others and their environment also shapes how they think and behave. Young people growing up in different cultures receive specific inputs from their environment.

    Culture can be defined as “the set of attitudes, values, beliefs, and behaviors shared by a group of people, communicated from one generation to the next.” Culture influences development. It really is that simple.

    It might sound a bit cheesy but, by choosing to do some gap year travel, you're embarking on a life-changing adventure that will enable you to develop as an individual. It pushes you out of your comfort zone... a bit scary at first, perhaps, but as the individual has experiences and copes with them... solves the problems one by one.... develops as a person. They have to because for the first time in their lives, mummy and daddy aren't there to pick up the pieces when they screw up.

    As I once put it about Coming Out: "I did a lot of growing up in a short space of time".

    When abroad, you have to get used to talking to people in other languages, eating all sorts of unusual things and living without home comforts. It opens the mind and prepares the individual for facing up to being challenged. And whether it is learning a language or learning how to solve a problem in the workplace, the same basic set of skills apply. Is it not better to learn these before going into the world of work, so that you are adequately prepared for when it happens...?

    Interpersonal skills are important. Any employer will tell you that. These skills can't be taught in a classroom. They can only be learned through experience. Living far from home, in another country, helps the individual to mature and become more independent... self reliant. It helps to develop skills such as communication, time keeping, perseverance and leadership. All of these are invaluable

    The likes of OB don't see people as multi-faceted individuals with complex personalities that need to be developed to get the best out of them. They see Factory Fodder. A person is nothing more than an economic unit, measured only by the amount of profit that can be extracted from their labour.

    Travel costs money = travel is bad. Their answer is to teach them as much as they need to know to do a job and then pack them off to become a producer of wealth for the already rich. Worker drones. Not people.

    A scheme like Erasmus sees greater potential in people and puts them into a situation that will draw that out, not only for the benefit of the individual themselves, but yes.... also for business. You can be a developed person AND an advantage in industry too, you know.... the two things are not mutually exclusive.

    Erasmus isn't some sort of taxpayer funded holiday jolly.... "let's send them off to Nepal so they can sit on top of a mountain and suss the world out while smoking dope at taxpayers expense (I have actually heard that said about it..!!!) No, it puts them in a foreign learning environment where they can study AND develop at the same time. How economic is that...?? Teaching academically and learning personal development AT THE SAME TIME...!! Bargain..!!!

    Frankly... those who oppose projects like Erasmus obviously didn't benefit from any personal development programmes when they were young. Probably out of school on the Friday and straight down t' pit on Monday. Not entirely their fault because that was what was available to them back then.

    But today's more enlightened generations see the benefits of such programmes and we want better for our children and grandchildren than what we had. I want my daughter to fulfil her potential one day..... whatever that potential may be. I want her to become the best person she can be. Be as happy as she can be. Live a fulfilling life. Not just be taught the bare minimum, in an underfunded and neglected state education system, just so she can do some monotonous chore for minimum wage so that some fat cat can add another 0 to his bank balance.

    The mindset of the capitalist is geared to nothing more than producing factory fodder. Drones, not people.

    Some of us think our young people are worth more than that.

  • Do they still do the the various dumbed down degrees in rather flakey subjects just so anyone can go to university I believe there was one i David Beckham studies or something like that, :/:rolleyes:

  • Do they still do the the various dumbed down degrees in rather flakey subjects just so anyone can go to university I believe there was one i David Beckham studies or something like that, :/:rolleyes:

    I couldn't tell you, Ron. Yes, there were some pretty silly sounding studies that came about after some de-regulation that occurred (I can't remember what it was now). It allowed higher education institutions broader scope for their programmes.

    Again, the public fell for the tabloid headlines about mickey mouse courses and ignored the underlying focus of those courses.

    The David Beckham course wasn't actually called that........ that was a label given to it by the press...... It had nothing to do with "Being like David Beckham" in terms of having floppy blonde hair and being good at taking free kicks. It was about media management. Beckham became a multi-millionaire and built an industry around himself by being able to maximise the commercial possibilities of his image.

    Students on that course learned about advertising strategies....... polling systems..... marketing techniques......... image manipulation and lots more besides.

    All of those things were very serious commercial activities and it's worth pointing out that the Brexit campaign had a key manager in its media management department who had taken the "David Beckham" course. She was Dominic Cummings "Girl Friday" behind all those "Share if you like" popups that appeared all over Facebook.

    And look what that led to, eh..? Imagine where we might be today if she'd studied Wookie instead.

  • Well either they have dumbed down the GCSEs or whatever they call them or education has really got that much better because it seems the whole world and their dogs are going to uni these days, even the chav type kids with their mouthy mums bragging about how their Damon or whatever is "goin uni innit", I'm kind of hoping it means education has got better but suspect it hasn't they've just dumbed it down.

  • Well either they have dumbed down the GCSEs or whatever they call them or education has really got that much better because it seems the whole world and their dogs are going to uni these days, even the chav type kids with their mouthy mums bragging about how their Damon or whatever is "goin uni innit", I'm kind of hoping it means education has got better but suspect it hasn't they've just dumbed it down.

    No, GCSE's haven't gotten dumbed down. Rather, they are now based on "Component Calculations" which, in short, means a combination of exam and non-exam evaluations such as coursework. They aren't any easier to pass, rather, they don't judge a student's entire academic career on the basis of a single two hour exam, as was probably the case when you took the old O Levels.

    In any case, GCSE's do not qualify a student for University. They are only the first stage. Most students leave school at 16 and start work. Their GCSE's show that they have possess a good understanding of the subject and qualifies them to do certain jobs to actually, quite a decent standard. GCSE's show employers that the applicant has shown at least a good basic aptitude for certain roles.

    GCSE's also indicate what subjects a student would be suitable to study at Advanced Level. And trust me........ A Levels are tough. And you can't begin to imagine the exam stress you go through waiting for those results because it is the results of your A Levels that will determine whether you get to take the university course of your choice........ or even if you are accepted at all. The universities don't have to take anybody. They want the students who they consider the best. If they don't think you're good enough, you won't get a place.

    Some courses are oversubscribed and only the best applicants get the places. Others get the dreaded rejection letter.

    Look at it like this: Education to GCSE Standard is a right

    Education to A Level Standard is based on results.

    Places at University have to be competed for.


    Your somewhat blinkered dismissal of education is disappointing. There are a lot of very good young people out there, who work really hard to achieve good grades. They don't deserve the ridicule and scorn of adults who, rather, should be encouraging them.

  • The likes of OB don't see people as multi-faceted individuals with complex personalities that need to be developed to get the best out of them. They see Factory Fodder. A person is nothing more than an economic unit, measured only by the amount of profit that can be extracted from their labour.

    You certainly have some strange views about how people who disagree with you think, and you are almost invariably wrong. Nobody who actually knows me would recognise anything in me that meets your description.

    After I have posted this, I'll just go back to my armchair and dream of Empire! :D

  • A scheme like Erasmus sees greater potential in people and puts them into a situation that will draw that out, not only for the benefit of the individual themselves, but yes.... also for business. You can be a developed person AND an advantage in industry too, you know.... the two things are not mutually exclusive.

    That may be the case, Jenny, but you have to accept that many people take the view that the State should be helping people only with their essential needs - not trips abroad and such like. If people want these extras, they should pay for them. That way, taxation can be kept low and people will have more lf their own money to spend.

  • Problem is you can't teach common sense, even the most educated people in the world can lack common sense.

  • Problem is you can't teach common sense, even the most educated people in the world can lack common sense.

    I made a very similar point back at the OP of this thread.


    Boris Johnson is a prime illustration that one can purchase education, but not intelligence.

  • Do they still do the the various dumbed down degrees in rather flakey subjects just so anyone can go to university I believe there was one i David Beckham studies or something like that, :/:rolleyes:

    How abut pizza making :D

    https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/fooda…a-a3131631.html

    The thing is Uni is more about business and partytime, social interaction and the rest of it. Anything apart from the subject advertised. You can even buy yourself a degree online and if one is lucky enough to get a job they are going to want to change what you learnt to how they do they things. The best eductation is the school of hard knocks. Apprenticeships are of more value in the real world.

  • How abut pizza making :D

    https://www.standard.co.uk/reveller/fooda…a-a3131631.html

    The thing is Uni is more about business and partytime, social interaction and the rest of it. Anything apart from the subject advertised. You can even buy yourself a degree online and if one is lucky enough to get a job they are going to want to change what you learnt to how they do they things. The best eductation is the school of hard knocks. Apprenticeships are of more value in the real world.

    Gotta disagree, Norra. I have never worked so hard than when I was at university.

    For sure, there were good times. But I was 18 when I left home for the first time. It was a massive adventure. I had freedom and the physical energy to enjoy it. My metabolism was capable of burning the candle at both ends. It was a new world and I felt like I was the master of my own destiny. And did I make the most of it..? You betcha.

    Yep... there were parties. Did I get involved in extracurricular actiivites..? Absolutely. Netball teams...... rugby teams.... joining the Womens Rights Activists.... The LGBT Rights Collective........... Protesting against the Iraq / Afghanistan Wars...... Damned right I did. Bring it on..!! I went to bars and pubs where hard rock bands played (badly, but we didn't care) and I drank my bodyweight in lager and vodka. I came out as being gay and discovered the LGBT "scene". Oh, the liberation...!!! Intoxicating.

    Yes..... I did all those things and probably others that I can't remember and woke up on Monday morning wondering where the hell I'd been all weekend.

    But those lectures were attended. That course work got done. Those long..loooooooooong hours in the lab learning how to use all that hi-tech equipment were taken. I took the sessions at Queen Alexandra Hospital, standing in the gallery and watching ........... well, you don't really want to know. Hours and hours and hours of reading long texts, completing assignments, producing papers, essays, reports and evaluations for a prof who didn't suffer sloppy work gladly. Hours and hours and hours of research, digging for information, finding relevant articles then learning them and evaluating them because you know damned well you're going to get tested not only on what you can do, but what you can FIND.......... and what you can do with what you find.

    And all that stuff had to be found QUICKLY because library loans at uni are short. You get 48 hours with an item and then have to have it back. The overdue fines are crippling and our librarian.... the dreaded "Green Cardigan"..... was the woman every student feared upsetting the most. You didn't want her on your back for overdues. And so you made the most of library loans. Trust me.

    If you didn't attend university and your only knowledge of it is what you've read in the tabloids then frankly, you haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about.

    As for apprenticeships... Well, they're OK, but they don't teach you anything about life. They don't provide the experiences that going to Uni does. Uni teaches you not only "How to do stuff", but it teaches you transferrable skills. How to do that research..... how to find that information.... how to evaluate it, use it, and even possibly improve on it. How to adapt to new situations. And not just how to respond to work as it is, but to influence the direction in which it is going. University teaches you how to be proactive. To adapt........ improvise....... overcome each problem as you come to it.

    An apprenticeship in, say, railtrack will teach you a lot about railtrack. Monkey see, monkey do. You'll learn how to be very good at laying and maintaining railway tracks. But that's all. You'll have no transferrable skills. Nothing else you can fall back on. A railtrack worker is all you will ever be. And if the bottom ever falls out of the railtrack industry in twenty or thirty years time, you will have redundant skills that are no good any more and you won't have the background abilities that will enable you to re-train easily.

    Do you remember all those miners who had taken apprenticeships in coal mining....? They thought they had jobs for life. But do you remember how the bottom fell out of their world when the mines closed...? Do you remember the trauma they had of having everything they ever did swept out from underneath them...?

    I was made redundant from the FSS in 2012. I lost the career I had to work so hard to get. Everything I studied for..... Everything I trained for...... Everything. I then took time out to start a family and only went back to work last year (and got immediately shut down by Covid..!!). But my university degree stood me in good stead. It was the qualification I needed to start my NEW career...... and it gave me the transferrable skills to be able to move from one career to another.

    You have a very negative view of university. To you it is all party, party, party and no work ever gets done. At the end of it you're given a degree in Wooky and can then go out and rule the world. But I studied Forensic Biology and I can promise you that it's bloody HARD. I EARNED my degree and I'm bloody proud of it.

    And yeah........ I got pissed and had sex. I played rugby and netball. I partied until dawn then had to sober up for early lectures. I had dogbreath and hangovers in the lab. I went on demos and to rallies and to Gay Pride. I protested and became a bloody pain in the arse to all those people I was protesting against. Because I was young and that's what you do when you're young and haven't got your parents watching you any more.

    And if I had to do it all again, I wouldn't change a thing.

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