Von der Leyen wants EU Army

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  • Von der Leyen: EU must acquire ‘political will’ to build own military
    European Commission president’s state of union speech urges bloc to learn lessons from US withdrawal from Afghanistan
    www.theguardian.com


    Here we go again... :rolleyes:


    All very well wanting a EU force, but as the EU president herself states, there has to be the political will to use it, assuming one is even funded.


    How would neutral countries who are not in NATO like Finland and Ireland react to a EU Army with orders coming from Brussels?


    Thank god we're not a part of this mess!

  • And I still don't think there will be.


    If the Germans want to expand their forces, they're already bigger than ours, they can. But if they want to do it under the auspices of the EU, then I doubt other countries in the EU will be so keen and thus, it's a non-starter, but we'll see.


    The Germans control the EU via the Euro. Do they really want to blow that now?

  • The world should be careful about Germany building up their forces. They have a history of using military might to subdue other countries. There could be a 4th Reich if they are allowed to expand their forces.

  • What does it matter to Britain..? It's got nothing to do with us any more. Our opinion is invalid in the argument because we gave up our seat at the EU table. We have no say in the matter.


    If it were to happen (which I doubt), then the biggest impact is likely to fall on NATO. Off the top of my head I can think of Germany, France (loosely), Denmark, Greece, Belgium, Spain, The Netherlands, Portugal, Hungary and Poland who are NATO members. I'm sure there are others.


    If those countries left NATO to create an EU army (which I don't think they will) it would seriously weaken both them and NATO. The strength of NATO lies in the unity of its member states. If there were to be an EU breakaway army, the Russians would then know they could work their mischief on those countries secure in the knowledge that USA wouldn't intervene militarily.


    If the EU wishes to create any sort of military pact among member nations, that's fine, as long as they remain members of NATO and continue to make their commitments to that. It's quite feasible that a pact among EU member states along the lines of NATO policy (an attack on one is an attack on all) can be reached.


    If this were to happen, then it is most likely that Germany would assume leadership in the same way that USA is the biggest voice in NATO. A council of senior member states with, say, Italy, France, Spain and The Netherlands as permanent members with others joining the council by vote among the other member nations.


    There would be no actual EU Standing Army, just an agreement that if one member nation is threatened, the others will then mobilise against the threat as a united force.


    It's probably best that Britain isn't involved. Our army isn't all we crack it up to be. I don't think Britain will be missed.

  • No doubt it'll be equipped with Italian tanks. You know: One forward gear and five reverse. ^^

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

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  • When Putin's troops invade Eastern Europe the idiots in Brussels will still be debating what to do whilst the Red army is goose stepping up the Champs Elysee.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

    If my post is in this colour  it is moderation. Take note.

  • When Putin's troops invade Eastern Europe the idiots in Brussels will still be debating what to do whilst the Red army is goose stepping up the Champs Elysee.

    Oh, for goodness sake, man. What have you been smoking...?


    Russia isn't going to invade western Europe. They didn't do it when they could have in the 1940's / 50's, when the Red Army was already halfway to the Atlantic coast, had vastly superior conventional forces and could have taken the rest of continental Europe (including Britain) in 100 hours. They're not going to attempt it now.


    Jeezus........

  • The world should be careful about Germany building up their forces. They have a history of using military might to subdue other countries. There could be a 4th Reich if they are allowed to expand their forces.

    The only country in Europe that is building a fascist Reich is the United Kingdom.


    The German people learned their lesson the hard way about right wing nationalist governments that lie, renege on promises, ignore legally binding treaties, scapegoat foreigners, abuse human rights, restrict civil liberties by passing laws that prevent protest and demonstration, manipulate the media and use populist concepts such as "patriotism" and flag waving to stir up emotional fervour to promote national exceptionalism.


    The British people are now in the midst of all those things. We too, will learn the hard way.




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  • The German people learned their lesson the hard way about right wing nationalist governments that lie, renege on promises, ignore legally binding treaties, scapegoat foreigners, abuse human rights, restrict civil liberties by passing laws that prevent protest and demonstration, manipulate the media and use populist concepts such as "patriotism" and flag waving to stir up emotional fervour to promote national exceptionalism.

    Sadly this true. It will be the US/UK Reich and it doesn't help when we have politicians opening up the border to allow foreign nations in. It's stuff like immigration that is the cause of resentment helped along by the politicians and shit stirring of the media. But lets not forget that it all originates from Germany and the UK division, the British Free Corps that led to things like the National Front and others. It's been embedded into our society from Germany much like the royal family.


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    As for the US they rescued many Nazi's because they wanted them as workers and they went on to infiltrate the US from the inside and now they have generations down from them spreading Nazism, the children and grandchildren that have turned into Neo Nazis, some of of them in high positions of political power. Did you ever see that Louis Theroux episode where he visited a woman and her young kids who sang in a band singing Nazi propaganda out in hillbilly country much in the same way as blacks spread their gang propaganda through rap only the Nazi's are more into heavy metal. He also almost got beaten up by some Nazi youths at their house when they suspected he was a Jew and had to leave rather rapidly.


    You see what has happened is that the Nazi's where never eradicated and all that has happened is that they where exported to regrow in other countries including South America. Germany is a fantastic country now. They came out better off from the war. We would now be better off if we had lost especially with Nazi tech / engineering and archaeology but things didn't turn out that way. I expect the same thing will happen with Iraq / Syria / Afghan / Pakistan and so called terrorism as we will have sleeper agents over here rebuilding themselves back up into an army. Just look at Shamima Begum and the media coverage she is getting to manipulate us all into thinking she has changed so we can allow her back in. She even has the perfect camouflage now with her baseball cap and western clothes to hide amongst the masses. She will end up like a sleeper agent over here along with those that sneak through via immigration.


    As for an EU army unless they are going to go to war with the US then I can't see what good it will do but to do that they need to get us back on side and also the Russians. The US is a toxic plague on this planet, not Russia or China. It will also cull us as many will die which will help with climate change and we can rebuild better with new political systems in place. Take out the US and the Middle East will sort itself out as the Saudis and Israelis will have no backup then and I expect wars there will cull some more to clean things up. We will even gain the respect of other middle eastern countries taking out the US. Seriously what good have they done for the health of the planet and world peace. It's like they are stirring their own spoon in their own shit and spreading it to the rest of the world including the UK.


    Anyway all this is completely irrelevant when we have climate change issues hanging over us because we will be extinct soon. Honestly I can't see the human race lasting another couple of generations. If Jenny ends up having grandchildren they will be lucky to live as long as Jenny. Nothing else matters when we have that threat hanging over us. Sorry to use you as an example jenny but some people need a reality check and building another army is not going to help unless we actually use it for the better. Human existence is at the end of the road and we are about to be made extinct and time is not on our side. We've had 40 years to do something about it and were only just starting to accept it.

  • Anyway all this is completely irrelevant when we have climate change issues hanging over us because we will be extinct soon. Honestly I can't see the human race lasting another couple of generations. If Jenny ends up having grandchildren they will be lucky to live as long as Jenny. Nothing else matters when we have that threat hanging over us. Sorry to use you as an example jenny but some people need a reality check and building another army is not going to help unless we actually use it for the better. Human existence is at the end of the road and we are about to be made extinct and time is not on our side. We've had 40 years to do something about it and were only just starting to accept it.


    Well, there is a heck of a lot to be going on with there...!! I can't say I agree with all of it, but there is much in your comments that are unarguably true. Perhaps I just draw different conclusions from your remarks. And that's fair enough.


    I don't mind you using me as an example because you're doing it fairly and with reasoned argument. That's fair too.


    Both the Americans and the Soviets captured German scientists as they swept across Europe during the war. I don't blame the scientists for going to work for their new masters. It was that or be shot. It was German technology that put Neil Armstrong on the moon, and it was German scientists who made sure the Soviets acquired the atomic bomb as quickly as they did. Left to Stalin, Soviet Russia wouldn't have had the bomb before the late 1950s, let alone 1949.


    Of course, I am deeply concerned about climate change because the threat is very, very real and it WILL impact on future generations. Yes, we do hope to have grandchildren one day. It is for the sake of hers and their future that I care so much about climate change and why I am so vehement in my determination to do all I can to contribute to the overthrow of Brexit - one of the most damaging things this country has ever done to itself.


    International problems can only be resolved by international co-operation and that is something that is sadly lacking, not just in Britain, but all over the planet. There have been many well intentioned plans for tackling international conflict but they all founder because sooner or later it becomes apparent that those who put themselves forward as peacemakers eventually reveal their true agenda. It becomes clear that they act in bad faith...... have selfish motives...... are not attempting peace, but only a version of peace. One that is biased towards "their side". Who can then be surprised when their ideological opponents do all they can to wreck those plans..?


    In this way, nothing is ever resolved and the world becomes even more deeply embroiled in regional power politics and armed conflict.


    Military alliances can be a good thing. NATO undoubtedly prevented a third world war, settling instead for a cold war where the balance of terror (nuclear arsenals) -as much as I despise them - did deter both the Soviet Union and USA from thinking they could win a war in Europe by conventional means.


    The idea of an EU army is not a bad one. It could be argued that it's a logical extension of the "European Project". The trading bloc using it's own combined military strength to provide security within its boundaries. It would reduce Europe's reliance on NATO (and for NATO that means USA) and given the right leadership, political doctrine, procurement and strategic objectives, it could be a very strong deterrent to the Russians who let's face it, ARE the most likely aggressors.


    Germany has become one of the most peaceful, and peace-oriented countries on Earth. They have no imperial objectives and are scrupulously honest, open and reasonable. They don't interfere militarily in any other conflicts and go out of their way to promote peace. The thought of any sort of threat coming from Germany is laughable.


    But they understand the potential threat to Europe and the European project and know that it may in the future come to a situation where it needs to be defended with force. Better then to have an army that is under European command rather than American.


    I still don't believe that an EU 'army' will happen, as such. More likely is a confederation of EU NATO members that will act as a sort of splinter-alliance without American support if push ever came to shove.


    Europe is growing stronger all the time. It knows now that at the present time it can't rely on British support. We're determined to isolate ourselves from our nearest neighbours.


    Europe is learning to stand on its own two feet. It's a tough ask and anything remotely resembling a combined force is a long way off. For now, they still have to rely on NATO. Good luck with that.

  • Also French Tanks .. They don't fire shells they just fire White Flags. :D

    Apparently in French schools they teach the all pupils how to say 'I surrender! " in over a hundred lauguages. 🤣

    Young boys in the park jumpers for goalpost that's what footballs all about isn't it.

  • Apparently in French schools they teach the all pupils how to say 'I surrender! " in over a hundred lauguages. 🤣

    Ah yes, the garlic munching surrender monkeys. They'll make fine recruits.

    History is much like an Endless Waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.

    4312-gwban-gif

    If my post is in this colour  it is moderation. Take note.

  • What does it matter to Britain...

    It matters because we're right next to these countries and we've not exactly had a good past with many of them.

    More likely is a confederation of EU NATO members that will act as a sort of splinter-alliance without American support if push ever came to shove.

    That was something our side hinted at some years ago, but the EU boss said yesterday that the EU should have a separate force outside of NATO and previously EU bosses have stated they want separate EU command and control centres.


    Germany has become one of the most peaceful, and peace-oriented countries on Earth. They have no imperial objectives and are scrupulously honest, open and reasonable. They don't interfere militarily in any other conflicts and go out of their way to promote peace. The thought of any sort of threat coming from Germany is laughable.

    Yes, they're peaceful, but perhaps your memory fails you over the 2008 financial crisis, especially the bit about a certain democratically elected prime minister of a certain country getting replaced by a EU bureaucrat at Merkel's "request".


    Russia isn't going to invade western Europe.

    But that can never be known for certain, can it?

  • Military alliances can be a good thing. NATO undoubtedly prevented a third world war, settling instead for a cold war where the balance of terror (nuclear arsenals) -as much as I despise them - did deter both the Soviet Union and USA from thinking they could win a war in Europe by conventional means.


    The idea of an EU army is not a bad one. It could be argued that it's a logical extension of the "European Project". The trading bloc using it's own combined military strength to provide security within its boundaries. It would reduce Europe's reliance on NATO (and for NATO that means USA) and given the right leadership, political doctrine, procurement and strategic objectives, it could be a very strong deterrent to the Russians who let's face it, ARE the most likely aggressors

    Military alliances are a good thing and I can understand the wish to have a separate force outside American control, especially in light of recent events in Afghanistan.


    Von der Leyden made a rather important point that never got picked up the media, in that at the start of withdrawal of coalition troops from Afghanistan, collectively EU countries had more troops in Afghanistan than America. That raised my eyebrows, yet the Americans did not consult with the EU or anyone else about withdrawal.


    Rather than set a up separate power base, the EU military countries especially France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Norway, Poland and a few others should join with us and collectively persuade the Americans to share power within NATO. But of course the American response would be, if you want to share power, you have to share the bills too...

  • Germany, before the !st world war had an excellent military. They exibited the best in decency, morals and civility.

    Unfortunately during the late 20's and 30's the rise of Socialism corrupted that fine army and under their Socialist Chancellor ( Hitler ) they regressed to usual Socialist traits of murdering innocent civilians ( approx 6 million of them ) murdering prisoners of war and bombing cities all over Europe. Hitler's Socialist army ignored the decency and discipline which most other armies adopted and committed unspeakable atrocities. Germany should not to be trusted.

  • And now we are going after China with a new Alliance with the US and Australia. The is Americas fight out ours. Why are they dragging us down with them again. China will win if we attack them. There no doubt about that unless we start using nukes.


    US, UK and Australia forge military alliance to counter China
    Aukus partnership will enable Australia to have nuclear-powered submarines for the first time
    www.theguardian.com


    And here's what the EU could so about it.


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  • What does it matter to Britain..? It's got nothing to do with us any more. Our opinion is invalid in the argument because we gave up our seat at the EU table. We have no say in the matter.

    I think we would have an interest in a large military force being formed across the channel/north sea from ourselves. The Command and Control structures would be complex and cumbersome and it would soon become apparent that operational effectiveness and troop deployment decisions would need to be streamlined leading to a few, probably unelected officials having power over an enormous force and weaponry.


    I think that it would be perceived as a hostile force once the sovereign authority of the constituent parts of this force have been over-ridden. Look at the nutters at the top of the EU, would you want them having control over you? As you know outside the political arena we don't really have any problem with our European neighbours and we can have diplomatic relations with them all for domestic stuff. But a giant military force is not something that should be welcomed as it will destabilise the western alliance that had held strong for 70 or so years.


    Furthermore in the potential case of Scottish independence and the re-admittance to the EU of Scotland the security of the new EU/England border would almost certainly be used as an excuse for troop deployment as the Scots would have no defence force of their own. Maybe the SNP welcome the idea of EU troops on what was UK soil keeping the vile English out but I cannot see the upside to that TBH.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

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