UK debt, how to manage it. Can the rich do more.

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  • The government have recently had to bailout business because of Covid and furlough large portions of the populace. Now the energy crises is putting pressure on government to help again.

    Here's my question.

    Why is the answer from the rich in this country always that government need to reign in spending to clear the debt, but never that they the rich should reign in their spending to help pay the debt with more tax.

  • Were talking about one of the same here so it's like I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine and we shall cause some noise and distraction while we make even more money. Thank you very much for the donation. Footballers are staring to moan now and the public brainwash is being put into TV programmes to start supporting them. They will never save themselves by taking a cut in wages or spending a few penny's unless it's for tax evasion or self promotion.

    Debt will never be dealt with as it's a weapon of control over those with less. Worldwide currency needs abandoning IMO and there is absolutely no reason we need this man made product to survive. It serves one purpose and one purpose only. To extort and cause a divide of rich and poor and to keep people indebted to those in power who hold all the cards and money. It's the same kind of tactics the mafia use and if you don't pay back your debt you get beaten up. Actually getting physically beaten would be better than having all your possessions taken away by debt collectors and then being made homeless plus all the mental abuse and years of suffering that come with that. A few broken bones and it's all over and done with quickly, it heals and you move on until next time you get into debt.

  • I don't agree money is unnecessary. It would be possible to trade everything without it, but far more difficult. I make ovens and you sell flowers. How do you buy one of my ovens?

    Money is inert. It is just an IOU backed by the treasury.

    Arguably you could ban lending and debt as these are used to remove money from the poor and give it to the rich. But good luck with that.

  • Buy is a concept of currency there is no need to buy.

    How do you obtain an oven from me.

    BTW, conversation would be considerably more easy and pleasant if you weren't so evasive or exacting or whatever you think you do that's so cool.

  • Buy is a concept of currency there is no need to buy.

    There would be nothing to buy if you didn’t have money because people would not work for nothing to produce it.

    Money was invented because bartering did not work except on a very basic level.

  • The government have recently had to bailout business because of Covid and furlough large portions of the populace. Now the energy crises is putting pressure on government to help again.

    Here's my question.

    Why is the answer from the rich in this country always that government need to reign in spending to clear the debt, but never that they the rich should reign in their spending to help pay the debt with more tax.

    The answer is simple - because we don’t have a global economy in the true sense.

    It’s all very well taxing businesses more, but unless every country is in unison, increased taxation on business will merely ensure that businesses take their money elsewhere. Which makes the country that raised their taxes less well off.

    It’s a conundrum that needs to be resolved, but there is no other system that brings so much wealth to so many as capitalism (with the mixed economy being the best balance we have found so far).

    If people want capitalism replaced, they must first come up with an idea of what could replace it that could make all our lives better. Communism doesn’t cut it and every country that has tried it has failed.

    The best thing we can do is to build on the principle of capitalism to try to make better distribution of wealth a reality.

  • It’s all very well taxing businesses more, but unless every country is in unison, increased taxation on business will merely ensure that businesses take their money elsewhere. Which makes the country that raised their taxes less well off.

    That is the claim, but in reality its not true. I have very many extremely wealthy associates, none of whom would leave family and friends behind and move to an unsafe less pleasant country to save one of the many millions they possess.

    And as for their businesses, they are in this country because it offers very many things low tax countries do not.

    The so called Laffer curve has been disproven many times, every time someone finally raises taxes they simply move the curve up a notch and claim it still exists

    Edited once, last by Zany: spelling mistake (December 27, 2021 at 12:49 PM).

  • If people want capitalism replaced, they must first come up with an idea of what could replace it that could make all our lives better. Communism doesn’t cut it and every country that has tried it has failed.

    What an incredibly black and white view.

    I would sound just as ridiculous if I claimed that if people don't want socialism then they must accept kings and starving peasants.

  • We could help our economy by rationalising our expenditure abroad. Also ship all those Illegal immigrants back across the channel and stop having to pay out billions in accommodation, food, and everything else while they are here. Also stop giving those criminals in prison a better life than the average pensioner and minimum wage earner.

    There's lots of ways to rationalise but unfortunately this is NOT a Conservative government in power. Boris and his compatriots are wishy washy Liberals. Get rid of the Eton Boys Club in the party and recruit REAL conservatives who put the UK first and foremost.

    The Voice of Reason

  • We could help our economy by rationalising our expenditure abroad.

    ??

    Also ship all those Illegal immigrants back across the channel and stop having to pay out billions in accommodation, food, and everything else while they are here.

    Oh yes that's definitely billions. In bonkers land.

    Also stop giving those criminals in prison a better life than the average pensioner and minimum wage earner.

    You should try going to prison, its a real holiday.

    there's lots of ways to rationalise but unfortunately this is NOT a Conservative government in power. Boris and his compatriots are wishy washy Liberals. Get rid of the Eton Boys Club in the party and recruit REAL conservatives who put the UK first and foremost.

    The real conservatives, as demonstrated above. lol.

  • Capitalism will natural blow a lid at some point when the bank's completely crash again where the super rich run off with the cash....and it's only a matter of time, virtually guaranteed at some point as some world financial experts say and it will be so big that it will be unrecoverable. The system will collapse in on itself. So we are left with either hanging around and waiting for that to happen which will cause complete pandemonium and anarchy or the powers to be slowly introduce a points based social credit type system to replace currency which is where I believe things are heading towards as more bots and automation take over the work and replace people. It will probably be points based on behavioural habits and who you associate with. Look around you as the infrastructure for this is already being set in place as we pay for it and keep feeding money up the chain that will eventually lead to the collapse. IIRC there is a city in South Korea or is it somewhere in Singapore, can't remember, anyway...that is already trialling this kind of way of living. The city is so tech advanced that people don't need to work. They earn points by keeping a regime set in place by those in power. It's a bit like the old CoOp Green shield stamps except you don't earn them from spending. The current banking system is basically a massive Ponzi scheme and they all crash eventually.

  • What an incredibly black and white view.

    I would sound just as ridiculous if I claimed that if people don't want socialism then they must accept kings and starving peasants.

    How so? Can you show me a single country where Communism has worked?

    China professes to be Communist, but it is no longer, embracing capitalism to have the country prosper and that has been a spectacular success.

    I note that you did not put forward an answer to my question about what would replace capitalism. I knew you wouldn't, because you have no answer. A mixed economy based on capitalism is the only system that works.

  • Capitalism will natural blow a lid at some point when the bank's completely crash again where the super rich run off with the cash....and it's only a matter of time, virtually guaranteed at some point as some world financial experts say and it will be so big that it will be unrecoverable. The system will collapse in on itself. So we are left with either hanging around and waiting for that to happen which will cause complete pandemonium and anarchy or the powers to be slowly introduce a points based social credit type system to replace currency which is where I believe things are heading towards as more bots and automation take over the work and replace people. It will probably be points based on behavioural habits and who you associate with. Look around you as the infrastructure for this is already being set in place as we pay for it and keep feeding money up the chain that will eventually lead to the collapse. IIRC there is a city in South Korea or is it somewhere in Singapore, can't remember, anyway...that is already trialling this kind of way of living. The city is so tech advanced that people don't need to work. They earn points by keeping a regime set in place by those in power. It's a bit like the old CoOp Green shield stamps except you don't earn them from spending. The current banking system is basically a massive Ponzi scheme and they all crash eventually.

    Nice theory, Norra, but not everything can be done by robots. How will you motivate people to take on arduous responsibilities? People won't work for no reward.

    Social credits are part of a system which can help alleviate poverty, but they are not the complete answer. The number of social credits issued to everyone would have to be limited otherwise it would not work, and what you get then is everyone being poor.

    That doesn't sound like a solution to me.

  • How so? Can you show me a single country where Communism has worked?

    No I can't but then that wasn't the point I was making at all.

    I was rebutting your claim that any changes to capitalism must mean a leap to the polar opposite of communism.

    Capitalism will natural blow a lid at some point when the bank's completely crash again where the super rich run off with the cash....and it's only a matter of time, virtually guaranteed at some point as some world financial experts say and it will be so big that it will be unrecoverable.

    There may well be a banking crash and a lot of pain, but it will not be the end of capitalism which is a system of its own not related to banking.

    or the powers to be slowly introduce a points based social credit type system to replace currency which is where I believe things are heading towards as more bots and automation take over the work and replace people. It will probably be points based on behavioural habits and who you associate with.

    I seriously doubt this system as it relies on being imposed by government who would also need to completely control the supply chain. If they did not people would quickly ignore the points system and either barter or create there own form of currency.

    Our current currency was merely a formalisation of a gentleman's agreement based on IOU's.

  • No I can't but then that wasn't the point I was making at all.

    I was rebutting your claim that any changes to capitalism must mean a leap to the polar opposite of communism.

    You seem to be dodging the question and misrepresenting me again, Zany. I clearly stated that a mixed economy was the best compromise and I have never advocated ‘pure’ capitalism.

    If you cannot come up with a better system yourself, or point to a better one that exists, isn’t this a pointless argument?

    The existing economic system we have isn’t perfect, and certainly tweaks can be made, but there simply isn’t any other way of doing it without having worse outcomes.

  • Robots and automation will replace everything eventually apart from those governing us. People that don't comply will either get no food or get locked up. Your movements are already being tracked everywhere you go. We will all live in Smart City's where pretty much everything is automated and monitored including us. The more data collected the more AI can develop and it wont be long before we develop AGI. By that stage it will be socially acceptable to marry CP3O and you may even be able to have cybersex with him. Another means of reducing population growth.

    Humans will almost be an android and have so many implants and chips installed. Imagine a paper thin iPhone that lives just under the skin on your forearm or you can plug yourself into a hole in the wall and get a prescription drug injected straight in from the virtual hole in the wall computer doctor. We may even have a port embedded into us to take onboard certain things. Maybe it could also be a means of feeding ourselves or we pop a nutrient pill.

    The scary thing is that it wont be forced on us and we will blindly buy into it in the same way folk have bought into mobile phones and we will slowly mutate. There's all kinds of tech already available. Check out some of the extreme trans human body modifications some folk buy. In Sweden people have a microchip injected into their hand so they can automatically open doors in their workplace and unlock systems. Their employer can also monitor where they are at all times.

    It looks like the person doing the injecting in the following vid is right into all this trans human body modification stuff and has a disc implant under the skin for something. I wouldn't be surprised if this where the suspicion about the vaccines being chipped evolved from. So as you can see it's not that far a stretch of the imagination and very much possible. There was also a school in the States that wanted to chip their children (for security reasons LOL) and there was a massive uproar about that a few years back. And to be clear I do not believe the vaccines contain a microchip. There's no point as we are all already microchipped via our mobile phones. That's our tracking device even without a Sim or battery installed as it still sends a signal so you can be triangulated to within about 6ft these days with the added help of Bluetooth mesh networks. A good faraday bag is the only escape as all your modern day remote car keys should be kept in too. You can get faraday key fob holders.

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  • You seem to be dodging the question and misrepresenting me again, Zany. I clearly stated that a mixed economy was the best compromise and I have never advocated ‘pure’ capitalism.

    You clearly stated.

    If people want capitalism replaced, they must first come up with an idea of what could replace it that could make all our lives better. Communism doesn’t cut it and every country that has tried it has failed.

    This in response to my suggestion the rich could pay more to help clear the countries debts.

    So you were claiming that any attempt to adjust capitalism by raising taxes on the rich meant an end to capitalism and replacement with communism.

    Clearly a black and white view, which is why I called it such.

    It is quite possible to have capitalism with higher taxes, so why make your statement?

    If you cannot come up with a better system yourself, or point to a better one that exists, isn’t this a pointless argument?

    I did. I suggested we could maintain capitalism while raising taxes.

  • Robots and automation will replace everything eventually apart from those governing us. People that don't comply will either get no food or get locked up. Your movements are already being tracked everywhere you go. We will all live in Smart City's where pretty much everything is automated and monitored including us. The more data collected the more AI can develop and it wont be long before we develop AGI. By that stage it will be socially acceptable to marry CP3O and you may even be able to have cybersex with him. Another means of reducing population growth.


    Humans will almost be an android and have so many implants and chips installed. Imagine a paper thin iPhone that lives just under the skin on your forearm or you can plug yourself into a hole in the wall and get a prescription drug injected straight in from the virtual hole in the wall computer doctor. We may even have a port embedded into us to take onboard certain things. Maybe it could also be a means of feeding ourselves or we pop a nutrient pill.


    The scary thing is that it wont be forced on us and we will blindly buy into it in the same way folk have bought into mobile phones and we will slowly mutate. There's all kinds of tech already available. Check out some of the extreme trans human body modifications some folk buy. In Sweden people have a microchip injected into their hand so they can automatically open doors in their workplace and unlock systems. Their employer can also monitor where they are at all times

    I saw this same film in 1967. Ooh and it also happened in 1984.

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