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  • You are blaming the government?!! The railway companies are the employers. The unions would rather the government got involved because this is a political battle.

    Incidentally, if you are trying to spread the myth that the customer is simply collateral damage, pray tell me why the unions deliberately target days to strike which have maximum impact on the public.

    They are wreckers and Luddites and not fit for purpose in the modern world.

    The rail companies are the employers but the government is directly involved in the negotiations.

    The government own Network Rail & pay each franchise large amounts of taxpayers money

    This not a normal business/union relationship

    Of course the public are affected, if your going to strike you want it to have maximum effect

  • You are blaming the government?!! The railway companies are the employers. The unions would rather the government got involved because this is a political battle.

    Incidentally, if you are trying to spread the myth that the customer is simply collateral damage, pray tell me why the unions deliberately target days to strike which have maximum impact on the public.

    They are wreckers and Luddites and not fit for purpose in the modern world.

    The government caused this mess through poor decisions in response to covid in terms of lockdown, furlough and money printing. Of course the rail strike has a political element to it because they feel for the first time in 40 years they have just cause. The government has to have the pain they inflicted upon us reflected back on them. The union’s are acting lawfully and provided they continue that way this could go on for a long time.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • They are wreckers and Luddites and not fit for purpose in the modern world.

    They are representing their members interests OB no more no less. Other industries have settled pay claims this year in the 7.5% region so industrial action is paying off in these inflationary times.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Of course the public are affected, if your going to strike you want it to have maximum effect

    You ignored my question about why, then, the unions deliberately targeted days which most inconvenienced the public. You can’t spin myths about the trade unions being the force for good on here! They are nasty and spiteful and they want us to suffer. They don’t do the workers as much good as many think they do, either, and believe me, I know from experience.

  • They are representing their members interests OB no more no less. Other industries have settled pay claims this year in the 7.5% region so industrial action is paying off in these inflationary times.

    So if that’s the case, why are they not prepared to discuss modernisation so they can get the pay increase that they say they want for their workforce? The companies have already stated that no redundancies are necessary to achieve this.

  • So if that’s the case, why are they not prepared to discuss modernisation so they can get the pay increase that they say they want for their workforce? The companies have already stated that no redundancies are necessary to achieve this.

    Modernisation = Job losses

    No union will tolerate that.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • As I understand it large wages claim now make it more difficult to reduce inflation

    You miss the point Fred. What is it that remains once inflation returns to normal low levels? Yes, the inflated wages and associated pensions which leave the workforce that won the pay rises better off long term and short term better able to ride out the hard times. They cannot lose.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • I still think these strikes are an attempt to bring the Government down and force an early GE

    Not sure how that would work Fred but they may just get a better pay rise than normal

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Modernisation = Automation, we will all be on the same boat in the near future and none of us will be employed and by that stage all identity cards, trackers and social credit system will all be set in place.

  • Modernisation = Automation, we will all be on the same boat in the near future and none of us will be employed and by that stage all identity cards, trackers and social credit system will all be set in place.

    Of course it does Norra, the mechanisation or automation of jobs has been the curse on the working classes for nearly a century. OB raised the subject in regard to the railways and their current pay negotiations so I'll stick to discussing modernisation in regard to the railways for now.

    Modernisation = Job Losses

    I think we need to start with that as an immutable fact. It doesn't mean retraining staff to do other jobs, it means replacing staff with automated systems or getting rid of the role and the people that do it entirely.

    So the question is who's jobs and how will that role be replaced and why is this necessary?

    I think the starting point for "modernisation" is for the proponents for it to come out from behind that word and state what they actually mean so that the paying customers can decide if this modernised service is something they want to have or not.

    There has been a long running row on South East Trains about getting rid of guards and operating the trains as a driver only service. Personally I really don't like the idea at all and I know that other passengers especially females really are against the idea. But the accountants think they can save a few quid and if they can push it through after a few months it will become the norm and nobody will complain about it anymore - that is how change operates (do it and ride out the complaints until normalisation sets in).

    The new rolling stock entering service is designed as a driver only operation and in itself that isn't a problem, the driver can see if the doors are clear via CCTV and that is all that the guard is seen as being, a glorified door minder. But there is a soft element of passenger assistance and passenger safety which have nuance and variability and randomness and situational context that no AI can deal with and above all else, there being a real human on the train other than the driver who can operate in an official capacity for the rail company and assist passengers.

    Ticket collectors are all but gone due to modern electronic ticketing, the ticket offices are vastly reduced for the same reason. None of this modernisation has resulted in any ticket price reductions whatsoever, we have the most expensive rail travel in the Europe as a result of the challenge of the fragmented franchise scheme and financial formula applied by the government.

    So what does this modernisation get us?

    Cheaper fares -no.

    Safer railways - no.

    More efficiently run railways - no.

    Bigger profits for the rail companys???

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Not sure how that would work Fred but they may just get a better pay rise than normal

    What they may get in the not too distant future is Automated Driverless Trains and Tube Trains, they will not longer be able to damage our economy , nor hinder the travelling public who pay their wages by buying expensive tickets, IMO the sooner the better

  • At some point Fred the modernisation gurus will find an occupation you do give a shit about.

    The railway workers are people not disposable human units. What would you do with all the redundant railway workers?

    Do you think the railways will be cheaper, safer or more efficient?

    Who will maintain this automatic utopia? More robots?

    As everyone will have been replaced by automatic systems, who will be using this railway system, nobody will have any money as nobody has a job anymore.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Just food for thought here. Machines, and more latterly the internet, have been replacing workers for a couple of centuries now. Yet we have full employment. Go figure!

    Given that the railway companies are saying that no redundancies will result from modernisation (because they have sufficient infilled vacancies and volunteers for redundancy already), why don’t the unions accept modernisation and take the money they are asking for?

    Modernisation will come sooner or later anyway, as it has in other modern countries.

  • What they may get in the not too distant future is Automated Driverless Trains and Tube Trains, they will not longer be able to damage our economy , nor hinder the travelling public who pay their wages by buying expensive tickets, IMO the sooner the better

    A big chunk of the ticket price goes back to the government as franchise fee & to share holders

    The railways should be renationalised, the same with water companies

    These industries are essentially monopolies, without the possibility of alternative suppliers

    The public will never get a good deal out of a monopoly

  • Armitage Shanks

    Wrong guess it is never wise to make assumptions I do not have the ability to read minds , nor do you , I care about the workers after all I was a worker for over 50 years , what I do not care about is the Extreme Left Wing Union Leadership I endured some of them back in the 60's.

    At the age of 15 years I had to no choice but to join a Union as it was a closed shop refuse to join and no work for you in my Lad, that is what I told by the Union Rep on my first day, I am from the North , Cotton County which was devastated by cheap imports we could not compete.

    The Unions fought all and any changes to working practices , better more up to date machines were rejected time after time by the Unions , when inflation rose they demanded wage increases demands the owners could not meet, only options left was to either continue and run at a lose or close down, they closed down no longer profitable

    I was made redundant twice in 6 years , I saw what was coming and got out moved down South, eventually many thousands of people were out of work in my home county ,

    Unions today are making the same mistake as some made back then, they think anyone who owns a business is automatically rich, I have never seen any Union creating employment Jobs, but I have seen them destroy Jobs far too many

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