How safe and effective are the Covid vaccines?

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  • We can only hope.

    When nuttier nutjobs are taken as serious contributors every day, not just in our humble forum but in national mainstream media, any 'joke' is lost in a fog of a very bleak outlook for the future.

    You seem convinced that the vaccine was safe and effective…

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • It was effective at reducing the severity of Covid. It brought the number of deaths down drastically and enabled us to lift restrictions.

    As for whether it was safe, well it was safer than contracting the full blown virus if you were vulnerable to the disease. There were side effects for some, but the balance of risk is pretty clear.

  • It was effective at reducing the severity of Covid. It brought the number of deaths down drastically and enabled us to lift restrictions.

    As for whether it was safe, well it was safer than contracting the full blown virus if you were vulnerable to the disease. There were side effects for some, but the balance of risk is pretty clear.

    Yes I also think that way, my wife's immune system is not good to say the least but still with us after Contracting Covid luck ? or the vaccine ?

  • It was effective at reducing the severity of Covid.

    I'm not sure there is any convincing evidence for this claim OB


    It brought the number of deaths down drastically

    I'm not sure there is any convincing evidence for this claim either OB. The metric used to determine death rates during Covid was the excess death rate and that is now higher than during Covid so what should be deduce from this?

    enabled us to lift restrictions.

    I'm not sure that is particularly true in of itself. The restrictions had to be lifted because the country was economically dying and civil disorder was brewing.

    As for whether it was safe, well it was safer than contracting the full blown virus

    Really? There are many who died directly from the vaccine in their prime of health and life, we are not allowed to talk about that of course because that would make us tin foil hat wearing, anti-vax, nutter conspiracy theorist, far right domestic terrorist, racist, bigots, (I don't think I missed any insults but please feel free to add any I did miss). If you were known to be medically vulnerable the vaccine might help you a little bit if it didn't make you really ill as a side effect. Most nations have now withdrawn the vaccine programmes for under 50's but some lunatics still advocate for children to be vacinated and for the continuation of mask wearing. Thank goodness we would never vote for such fuckwits... :/


    There were side effects for some, but the balance of risk is pretty clear.

    Indeed there were - myocarditus, sudden heart seizure, reduced immune system effectiveness, nerve damage including partial paralysis and blood clotting and errr...death. All to stave off an illness with a 99.7% survival rate. But we are not allowed to talk about that...

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Indeed there were - myocarditus, sudden heart seizure, reduced immune system effectiveness, nerve damage including partial paralysis and blood clotting and errr...death. All to stave off an illness with a 99.7% survival rate. But we are not allowed to talk about that...

    Yes there has been in increase in cardio vascular disease and heart attacks, but as has been the case AS since i joined this forum you take genuine facts and put your own twist to the reasons for this.

    Covid caused an initial severe increase in heart and vascular related mortality in 2020, excess deaths was stabilised and the mortality rate reduced as a result of the vaccinations.

    However the number of cardio vascular related deaths has remained high. As of yet there are suspicions that this may be a result of covid as it still occurs amongst patients who have NOT been vaccinated but have contracted and recovered from covid. I accept there is a possibility that there may be a vaccine link but as of yet that has not be established.

    There are lasting effects that a small percentage of people are even now still suffered from long covid is but one, respiratory problems heart related issues,vascular issues and combinations thereof. Are these Covid issues or vaccine related, that will depend upon whether they ask you or their doctor.

    All medicines have some side effects that generally on a small proportion of users experience. I will give an example of one taken by millions with some rather debilitating side effects that a large proportion experience, STATINS.

    I am on stating and have been for several years and I do have cardio vascular problems NOT covid or vaccine related.

    Statins are seen as a wonder drug, reducing cholesterol and helping reduce heart disease and stroke. But they can cause several side effects, one that I have experienced with 3 different stations, that of leg muscle cramps so severe I was unable to walk.

    Yet I still take them, their benefits to/for me far outweigh the risks and side effects. Which we manage in a different way.

    Did your parents have any children that lived.

  • excess deaths was stabilised and the mortality rate reduced as a result of the vaccinations.

    or because those who were actually susceptible to the virus had caught it and died or caught it, survived and had natural immunity. The vaccine didn't prevent catching or passing on the virus, its only claim was it reduced severity but in return a risk of a number of unpleasant side effects emerged, some of which were potentially life changing or life threatening in a way that was more of a risk than taking your chances with the Covid virus itself.

    However the number of cardio vascular related deaths has remained high. As of yet there are suspicions that this may be a result of covid as it still occurs amongst patients who have NOT been vaccinated but have contracted and recovered from covid. I accept there is a possibility that there may be a vaccine link but as of yet that has not be established.

    You accuse me of putting my own twist on facts and then you write this ^^^ ?(


    There are lasting effects that a small percentage of people are even now still suffered from long covid is but one, respiratory problems heart related issues,vascular issues and combinations thereof. Are these Covid issues or vaccine related, that will depend upon whether they ask you or their doctor.

    You have once again resorted the the "I'm not qualified so I can't have an opinion" tactic. Anyone can look at the various issues that have emerged from the Covid pandemic and draw some logical conclusions or at a lower scale can make some observations about things that are tanglibly true each of themselves even if still officially unexplained.

    Long Covid is something that seems to be similar to chronic fatigue syndrome in some cases and in other cases it is even more dibilitating than that. Some sufferers of "Long Covid" were vaccinated, caught covid anyway and never really recovered. Would they have been even more ill if not vaccinated? Would they have been less ill? We will never know. Who gets long covid? Why does it effect some but not others? Why are some people infected with Covid but have no syptoms and yet others are hospitalised? It was the same virus that both types of victim caught wasn't it? It was the same virus right? Right? If two people of apparently similar age and health have entirely different reactions to the virus, one hardly knows they have it and another ends up in hospital fighting for their life and another gets long covid that dibilitates them for years. That is what we are talking about here isn't it? There are people out there who never had the vaccine, never got ill and are just fine. There are others out there who took the vaccine and every booster and ended up catching the virus multiple times and taking up a hospital bed or getting long covid. There are others out there who were young and fit who took the vaccine and dropped dead a week later without even having caught the virus. It is possible for all of these things to be true at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive. All of these things can and did happen to different people. Did covid make them suffer their lasting health problems, well probably in some cases it did. Did the vaccine cause some to have lasting health issues that they would otherwise not have, well in some cases that is probably true as well. Did some people who never had covid but had the vaccine and then suddenly dropped dead in the street, was that caused by the vaccine, well it might have been the vaccine but nobody is looking into it, which is sort of suspicious don't you think?

    The point is there is no one correct answer.

    • To say that the vaccine was safe and effective is simply not true. There are too many unanswered issues to draw that conclusion.
    • To say that only unvaccinated people suffer Long Covid as you assert is simply not true. Many vaccinated people have long covid.
    • To say that people didn't die as a result of the vaccine they received is simply not true. There are too many cases of people who died in their prime of life a week or two after having the vaccine without ever having contracted covid.
    • To say that nobody suffered life changing side effects from the vaccine is simply not true. There are too many cases of people who are different in their health situation now than they were before the vaccine. Yes people get ill all the time and tradegy strikes all the time but we have the elevated excess death telling us something now and it is being ignored now it no longer serves the purpose this metric previously served.

    Many different and apparently conflicting things can be true at the same time. To try to provide a simplistic blanket explanation doesn't really help.

    All medicines have some side effects that generally on a small proportion of users experience. I will give an example of one taken by millions with some rather debilitating side effects that a large proportion experience, STATINS.

    I am on stating and have been for several years and I do have cardio vascular problems NOT covid or vaccine related.


    Statins are seen as a wonder drug, reducing cholesterol and helping reduce heart disease and stroke. But they can cause several side effects, one that I have experienced with 3 different stations, that of leg muscle cramps so severe I was unable to walk.

    Yet I still take them, their benefits to/for me far outweigh the risks and side effects. Which we manage in a different way.

    I agree that all medcines carry side effects and some people are more susceptible to side effects than others. The side effects have to be assessed against the apparent benefits and maybe dosages modified to try to strike a balance between the benefit and the impact. Statins are a well understood treatment so the risks and how to mitigate them are quite well understood. The benefits of the drug can be understood against the cost of not taking them. Its not quite like the covid vaccine where you are asking healthy people to take an experimental drug that has been given an emergency usage license and the side effects are not fully known and understood....and subsequently healthy people start suffering from a range of life changing or life ending issues only weeks after the drug was administered.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • I'm not sure there is any convincing evidence for this claim OB

    From memory I seem to recall them saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the most effective but then only for about 75-80% of patients?

    Regardless of that actual number they didn't at any time claim it (or any subsequent vaccine) was 100% effective and I can't think of any drug that won't have a negative effect on someone - so what's your point?

  • From memory I seem to recall them saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the most effective but then only for about 75-80% of patients?

    Regardless of that actual number they didn't at any time claim it (or any subsequent vaccine) was 100% effective and I can't think of any drug that won't have a negative effect on someone - so what's your point?

    Correct all medicines have side effects, they come packaged with a list of known side effects included in the packaging. You can then read up before you decide to take it or not. It is up to you.

    Of course with Covid there was the coersive pressure to take the vaccine, to not be a granny killer, to avoid social ostracisation, to allow you to get back to normal, to allow you to travel with you covid vaccine passport showing you were up to date, I don't recall being asked if I was up to date with my heart burn medicine before going on holiday, TV talking heads calling for a 2 teir society with normality for thos who had thew vaccine and lockdowns for those who didn't. So, to summarise when given the type of coersive pressure to take a medical treatment even when you are healthy, there is some implicit trust that it will be safe and effective. My point is that we were told the vaccine was safe and effective and we now know that was a lie.

    From Pfizer representatives directly under questions from the EU...

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    and from that well known purveyor of Conspiracy Theory "The British Medical Journal"

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    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • ... to summarise when given the type of coersive pressure to take a medical treatment even when you are healthy, there is some implicit trust that it will be safe and effective. My point is that we were told the vaccine was safe and effective and we now know that was a lie.

    I don't remember ever being told it was 100% safe and effective so can't accept that summary regarding implicit trust about it being safe and effective. There's always an element of risk , same as not knowing what Covid might do to you if you had an underlying health problem you may or may not have been aware of.

    If I wasn't told it was 100% safe I wasn't told a lie. Who supposedly told me that lie?

    I watched practically every announcement on the telly and didn't once feel like I was being given a cast iron promise.

    Those who opted to do a deep dive into the internet to find evidence of something untoward going on, were simply looking to validate their reluctance to take the vaccine in the first place.

    It was a pandemic, so of course there was going to be an element of coersive pressure to get ahead of the virus and put something into your arm that improved your odds of combatting it (and keeping you out of an ICU on a ventilator) in the likely event of contracting Covid. No-one ever told me the vaccine would prevent me from catching it. it wasn't a shield, it was an assist, in the event of as far as i was always concerned.

    Pray tell what the protocol for dealing with the next global pandemic should be if this one was so flawed (preferably in advance)

  • I'm not sure there is any convincing evidence for this claim OB

    Well, I remember distinctly seeing the graphs produced by the NHS clearly showing death rates among the elderly plummeting when the inoculations were being carried out.

    While it is always good to be sceptical, Armitage, I think you’ve gone into overdrive on this one. Only a small number of people were seriously impacted by side effects. For most they were minor and well worth the element of protection it gave them.

  • The world was not prepared for Covid, not even the Chinese we will never know how many Chinese died especially the old and vulnerable who allegedly were not vaccinated.

    There will be another one they occur every so often , will we and the world be ready for it ? No

  • Really? There are many who died directly from the vaccine in their prime of health and life, we are not allowed to talk about that of course because that would make us tin foil hat wearing, anti-vax, nutter conspiracy theorist, far right domestic terrorist, racist, bigots, (I don't think I missed any insults but please feel free to add any I did miss). If you were known to be medically vulnerable the vaccine might help you a little bit if it didn't make you really ill as a side effect

    You have once again resorted the the "I'm not qualified so I can't have an opinion" tactic. Anyone can look at the various issues that have emerged from the Covid pandemic and draw some logical conclusions or at a lower scale can make some observations about things that are tanglibly true each of themselves even if still officially unexplained.

    AS.... top quote, you say it as if its FACT, it is comments like this that makes me react. I never actually have said your wrong, what I am implying is that which you portray as factual is not factual it is what you describe as opinion. You will say I'm nit picking, but those are your words.

    Bottom quote.... you have some excellent sensible opinions on most things, unfortunately this isn't one of them. In so much as our friend TR reacts to the name Johnson negatively even if the point was unreasonable so you react in this way over covid and the vaccine.

    I have no desire to get into the argument again regarding evidence or facts, but I will draw your attention to several responses from you to OB,

    I'm not sure there is any convincing evidence for this claim either OB. The metric used to determine death rates during Covid was the excess death rate and that is now higher than during Covid so what should be deduce from this?

    you want evidence for others facts then when you state something in a manner that comes across as stating a fact 😭.

    Did your parents have any children that lived.

  • The world was not prepared for Covid, not even the Chinese we will never know how many Chinese died especially the old and vulnerable who allegedly were not vaccinated.

    There will be another one they occur every so often , will we and the world be ready for it ? No

    Well, we won’t have a vaccine ready unless it’s a virus we know about, but at least we shouldn’t be making the same mistakes again - next time we should not even be contemplating lockdowns, and we should have good stocks of PPE.

    Track & Trace works better now that it has been live-tested and the problems dealt with, so that should also be ready to re-launch.

  • Well, we won’t have a vaccine ready unless it’s a virus we know about, but at least we shouldn’t be making the same mistakes again - next time we should not even be contemplating lockdowns, and we should have good stocks of PPE.

    Track & Trace works better now that it has been live-tested and the problems dealt with, so that should also be ready to re-launch.

    Exactly we will not know what it is until it arrives and may take time to identify it and longer to find how to treat it, as for PPE it does have a shelf life I believe, and will it stop a new virus or one that has mutated , who knows , Putin may save us the bother :cursing:

  • I don't remember ever being told it was 100% safe and effective so can't accept that summary regarding implicit trust about it being safe and effective. There's always an element of risk , same as not knowing what Covid might do to you if you had an underlying health problem you may or may not have been aware of.

    If I wasn't told it was 100% safe I wasn't told a lie. Who supposedly told me that lie?

    I don’t know why act dumb sometimes, I know that quite obviously you are far from that.

    Here’s the purveyor of conspiracy theories the British Heart Foundation telling us the vaccine is safe and effective…

    And from the USA…

    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditi…of%20COVID%2D19.

    There were many many occasions where we were told that the vaccines were safe and effective. The fact that you can’t remember is neither here nor there it happened simple as.

    Those who opted to do a deep dive into the internet to find evidence of something untoward going on, were simply looking to validate their reluctance to take the vaccine in the first place.

    That is an unsubstantiable presumption on your part. We knew the US CDC gave an emergency use license to the Pfizer vaccine based on limited testing. We were told what a miracle it was that a vaccine was available before Christmas 2020, we were told that normally these things take 10 years with all the regulatory testing that is done, but clearly that had not happened. No deep dive on the internet was required, the reports of blood clotting were coming out very early doors on the mainstream media. There were many expressions of concern especially about the Astra Zenica vaccine and its use was restricted in many countries. But the claims of side effects are spread across all variants of the vaccine.

    No-one ever told me the vaccine would prevent me from catching it. it wasn't a shield, it was an assist, in the event of as far as i was always concerned.

    Funny that don’t you think. The polio vaccine prevents you getting polio, the measles jab stops measles, the TB jab stops TB but the covid jab just about manages to stop you getting as ill as you might if you were not vaccinated. You are still contagious and you still have to isolate (or did at the time). It wasn’t tested properly, had emergency use licensing and was sold to governments on the basis there could be no comeback later.

    Just saying…

    Pray tell what the protocol for dealing with the next global pandemic should be if this one was so flawed (preferably in advance)

    Understand who is genuinely vulnerable and get them isolated. We knew the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions were vulnerable this time. Next time it might be children or young adults if it’s a sexually transmitted infection. But first find out who is really at risk and deal with them.

    If it’s something like Ebola then that is next level and full lockdown would probably be appropriate but another respiratory infection which is most likely, should be dealt with somewhat differently to last time.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • AS.... top quote, you say it as if its FACT, it is comments like this that makes me react.

    Fact…

    BBC presenter died due to complications caused by AstraZeneca jab
    BBC radio presenter Lisa Shaw, 44, died at the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle just over three weeks after her first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine,…
    www.dailymail.co.uk

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

  • Here’s the purveyor of conspiracy theories the British Heart Foundation telling us the vaccine is safe and effective…


    Covid vaccines: your questions answered http://www.bhf.org.uk

    And having read it, I most certainly didn’t misunderstand the message being given out. When you read the ‘How safe’ sections, it confirms the side effects and it also says they are rare. And for those concerned about blood clots, there are more cases of those actually getting Covid more severely having blood clots than those having the vaccine.

    This whole scare story has been bigged up out of all proportion. In short, yes, there are health risks from the vaccine, but it is far more dangerous than getting full blown Covid, as you saw from all those people on respirators.

    The vaccine, imperfect though it was, enabled the PM to fight against the lockdown lobby and bring back normality to our lives. It was the least worse option.

    Incidentally, no-one was forced to have the vaccine.

  • AS

    Do you only deal in absolutes?

    Safe and effective doesn't mean a 100% cast iron guarantee. That's my point.

    To my knowledge no drug has ever boasted that users would never be subject to a possible side effect, so you highlighting what happened to those unfortunate to had bad/fatal adverse reactions to this particular vaccine doesn't make anything a lie.

    I took the vaccine knowing that:

    a) it might not work on me

    b) there was a risk I might have an adverse reaction to it

    hence my question....what lie?

    Are there no recorded cases of people having adverse reactions to Polio, MMR or Tb jabs?

    How can you identify the people who'd be genuinely vulnerable in advance of knowing, let alone understanding the virus you're dealing with?

    That's a nonsense.

    It's not as though the government has a comprehensive, all encompassing medical database on us all...I've not been anywhere near a doctor's surgery in at least 15 years and even then it was simply to get a bog standard medical check over for a taxi license which pretty much consisted of ticking the boxes "has a pulse and not blind."

    I (and I'd guess millions like me) would be in the exact same lottery draw as I was with Covid.

    How wouldn't I be?

  • We mustn't forget that through all this, the government were working in the dark. This was completely new and not enough was known about the virus to take the position that Armitage advocates.

    If we have learned anything through that miserable experience, it should be never to take the view that the medical people know everything about everything medical.

    They don't and politicians are fully entitled to question the advice they proffer. It's the medical control freaks that I rail against, not the government.

  • as you saw from all those people on respirators.

    Those were the people with pre-existing conditions or elderly or obese or a combination of those. Very very few fit healthy people succumbed to covid. The deaths in under 50s were statistically very low and diminishing with youth.

    Incidentally, no-one was forced to have the vaccine.

    True, but the pressure from media and government advertising and local restrictions via the NHS to demonstrate proof of vaccination was extremely coercive. You are downplaying this OB.

    Celebrate it, Anticipate it, Yesterday's faded, Nothing can change it, Life's what you make it

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