The Great Debate on Immigration in the UK

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  • 3 No, of course we can't justify murdering millions of innocent people just to make our lives a little bit easier. I was just listing the possibilities. I would maintain that the only real option we can exercise is zero tolerance to illegal immigrants and not allow Britain's liberal-minded Useful Idiots to soft pedal how we deal with immigration. We must get on with our lives and the Middle East must get on with their theirs and maybe they will come to their senses .... or maybe not. Just as long as they don't try to kill us for being infidels. Otherwise we must kill them, at the very least not feed them.

    On the first point about illegal immigration, I agree. We must have a zero tolerance policy. I noted on the news channels yesterday that some of the "experts" they got in to talk about the deaths of the migrants were themselves illegals into this country, who have been accepted.... If you break the law once (entering the country illegally) you get no second chance.


    On your second point, it would be nice to think we can ignore this region, but this region won't ignore us. The House of Saud did the deal with the devil a hundred or so years ago with the wahhabis to spread their form of Islam around the world. It's now causing enormous problems in places like Bosnia, sowing the seeds for the next conflict there. And then there are others like the Iranian regime who are hell bent on getting a nuclear bomb. So, no. We can't ignore them.


    If you want to address the bigger picture take a look through Kissinger's book called World Order.

    Noted, thanks.


    6 A real United Nations? That'll be the day! What the UN needs to do is obvious. What the UN fails to do is outrageous. They are as United as our United Kingdom! The concept of "peacekeepers" will always fail. It's a euphemism for standing on the sidelines as disapproving helpless spectators. As for offering safety, shelter and food, how does that turn the tide? A multi-nation auction of virtue signalling. Gimme a break!

    It doesn't turn the tide. It's not to interfere in whatever internal conflict is going on, but just trying to protect innocent lives and give a future generation a chance.


    7 You rightly admit to not knowing how to help economic migrants. Here's an idea: don't help them. You say we need to invest in Africa, Asia and South America, in the hope that this will give them a head start to improve themselves. I don't think giving money, know how and hints of gracious living is going to change their DNA. All they have to do is stop killing one another and stop wanting to kill people in other countries who don't think much of their lifestyle or values. By all means give them a helping hand if it is evident they are trying to scale new heights rather than protests and riots. By all means set up manufacturing operations in such countries to help people put food on their table rather than live a dog-eat-dog existence. But do it with a benefactory spirit rather than plundering capitalism seeking to exploit cheap labour or steal national resources. Take a backseat and don't be a backseat driver. Don't waste time on a country of incurables. For example, we are learning that Mugabe wasn't the root of the problem. It was Zimbabwe's black citizens. It's the evil bastards who the citizens vote for. They vote for people like themselves who sneak their way into becoming a minister or leader. Just like the deadbeats who have inveigled their way into UK Parliament.

    Good post.


    I agree that if we do help other countries it shouldn't be to exploit them through either cheap labour or plundering their resources and set up manufacturing operations so that they can turn their natural resources into sellable goods, sounds like a great idea.

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  • "It doesn't turn the tide. It's not to interfere in whatever internal conflict is going on, but just trying to protect innocent lives and give a future generation a chance."


    But it does nothing.

    So called peace keepers don their blue berets and pretend to keep the peace but when something kicks off, usually one side killing the other, they stand on the excuse "not allowed to interfere"

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I have held back on this long enough. The people who died, died attempting to commit an illegal act, and that is to say they were attempting to enter a country illegally. I am not in favour of allowing any asylum seekers in, but these people are arguably worse. They obviously had the money to pay people traffickers, but instead of investing it into their country's economy they decided to come and live in the land of milk and honey. I do not wish any harm on anyone, but if any person decides to commit a crime and suffers as a result, then perhaps a lesson has been learned.

    Long Live Rich People

  • I have held back on this long enough. The people who died, died attempting to commit an illegal act, and that is to say they were attempting to enter a country illegally. I am not in favour of allowing any asylum seekers in, but these people are arguably worse. They obviously had the money to pay people traffickers, but instead of investing it into their country's economy they decided to come and live in the land of milk and honey. I do not wish any harm on anyone, but if any person decides to commit a crime and suffers as a result, then perhaps a lesson has been learned.

    I agree, in part. While I wouldn't wish death upon them, at best they would be living in the black economy and at worst become modern slaves where they are forced to live like dogs so that they can send their meagre earnings home. They were criminals, not immigrants, who put their own lives in the hands of other criminals.


    I fail to see how other countries can blame the UK for the horrendous result, but it appears China is blaming the UK for the deaths. Maybe China should ask itself why their people are so desperate to leave that they will risk their lives to do so!

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • On your second point, it would be nice to think we can ignore this region, but this region won't ignore us. The House of Saud did the deal with the devil a hundred or so years ago with the wahhabis to spread their form of Islam around the world. It's now causing enormous problems in places like Bosnia, sowing the seeds for the next conflict there. And then there are others like the Iranian regime who are hell bent on getting a nuclear bomb. So, no. We can't ignore them.

    I think we're on the same page on all the points I made and you commented upon, including the one I've selected above. You're right, we can't just ignore the ME and wait for them to decide on co-existence or annihilating one another. The third possibility, of seeking to kill or rule over the West has to be addressed. We can at least target those states whose remarks and behaviour reveal their intent in no uncertain terms. For those targeted rogue states we must use an accurate rifle rather than a blunderbuss so as to concentrate on the destroying the military and their weapons, with care and effort to minimise harm to civilians (even though many of those civilians will be supporters of their country's fanatical dangerous ambitions). Assuming these mad buggers are incurable, this will end up being like mosquito control or Japanese Bind Weed, where once every 5-10 years they will need to be stamped out. After the first major onslaught, 5-10 yearly control maintenance should be quick and easy.


    Sadly, we're a long way from all that if Britain and America are willing to sell weapons to Saudi or even have an embassy there. Likewise Iran. For the time being at least, these are countries that merit look-out alert monitoring, where any future negotiations and joint cooperation will be clearly dependent on demonstrable improvements in behaviour and stated attitudes. With Saudi Arabia I reckon that the West's refusal to deal with them at all will be a powerful enough incentive for them to clean up their act and stop dreaming of ruling the West. Or if the West gets impatient at least it knows where to drop its bombs to reduce their palaces and occupants to rubble. Because in Saudi Arabia that's where the real potent weapons are, viz despots & dosh. For Iran, the West will have a war on its hands and it shouldn't wait for for Iran's nuclear development to develop too far. It will be made clear to the world (= China and Russia) that this is purely self-defense against a real threat that has gone beyond sabre-rattling. From America's standpoint, it would be nice if Europe could get on side but I doubt America will be holding its breath waiting for an answer from Europe once Iran has nuclear warheads than can reach America's East coast. And even if America 4000 miles away is holding its breath (satellite guns cocked) and Europe is gibbering its usual platitudes, Israel just up the road will have a very itchy trigger finger.

  • I have held back on this long enough. The people who died, died attempting to commit an illegal act, and that is to say they were attempting to enter a country illegally. I am not in favour of allowing any asylum seekers in, but these people are arguably worse. They obviously had the money to pay people traffickers, but instead of investing it into their country's economy they decided to come and live in the land of milk and honey. I do not wish any harm on anyone, but if any person decides to commit a crime and suffers as a result, then perhaps a lesson has been learned.

    I don't necessarily disagree with that, but the lesson never is learned really. They still come.


    But it does nothing.

    So called peace keepers don their blue berets and pretend to keep the peace but when something kicks off, usually one side killing the other, they stand on the excuse "not allowed to interfere"

    That was why I mentioned the Dutch peacekeepers in Bosnia, as they stood aside and allowed genocide to occur right in front of them. Any peacekeeper mission, must be allowed to use force and given the resources to enforce safe zones.

    I agree, in part. While I wouldn't wish death upon them, at best they would be living in the black economy and at worst become modern slaves where they are forced to live like dogs so that they can send their meagre earnings home. They were criminals, not immigrants, who put their own lives in the hands of other criminals.


    I fail to see how other countries can blame the UK for the horrendous result, but it appears China is blaming the UK for the deaths. Maybe China should ask itself why their people are so desperate to leave that they will risk their lives to do so!

    I agree. I've not seen the news yet today, but if China is blaming us, that's a bloody cheek considering what the Chinese regime may be planning for Hong Kong.

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  • Sadly, we're a long way from all that if Britain and America are willing to sell weapons to Saudi or even have an embassy there. Likewise Iran. For the time being at least, these are countries that merit look-out alert monitoring, where any future negotiations and joint cooperation will be clearly dependent on demonstrable improvements in behaviour and stated attitudes. With Saudi Arabia I reckon that the West's refusal to deal with them at all will be a powerful enough incentive for them to clean up their act and stop dreaming of ruling the West. Or if the West gets impatient at least it knows where to drop its bombs to reduce their palaces and occupants to rubble. Because in Saudi Arabia that's where the real potent weapons are, viz despots & dosh. For Iran, the West will have a war on its hands and it shouldn't wait for for Iran's nuclear development to develop too far. It will be made clear to the world (= China and Russia) that this is purely self-defense against a real threat that has gone beyond sabre-rattling. From America's standpoint, it would be nice if Europe could get on side but I doubt America will be holding its breath waiting for an answer from Europe once Iran has nuclear warheads than can reach America's East coast. And even if America 4000 miles away is holding its breath (satellite guns cocked) and Europe is gibbering its usual platitudes, Israel just up the road will have a very itchy trigger finger

    The problem with Saudi Arabia is they know that the West is still dependent on their oil and that will remain for a generation until electric cars/battery tech matures. So, they sell us oil on one hand, while funding extremist mosques on the other. Playing both sides as they've always done.


    With Iran, we could turn that country around with a little effort and perhaps a revolution or two. I agree Israel would deal with Iran long before we ever got around to it, but if we used our intelligence agencies and worked on the young, which make up a bulk of that population, there is a chance the mullahs might lose their grip on power.

    I think we're on the same page on all the points I made and you commented upon, including the one I've selected above. You're right, we can't just ignore the ME and wait for them to decide on co-existence or annihilating one another. The third possibility, of seeking to kill or rule over the West has to be addressed. We can at least target those states whose remarks and behaviour reveal their intent in no uncertain terms. For those targeted rogue states we must use an accurate rifle rather than a blunderbuss so as to concentrate on the destroying the military and their weapons, with care and effort to minimise harm to civilians (even though many of those civilians will be supporters of their country's fanatical dangerous ambitions). Assuming these mad buggers are incurable, this will end up being like mosquito control or Japanese Bind Weed, where once every 5-10 years they will need to be stamped out. After the first major onslaught, 5-10 yearly control maintenance should be quick and easy.

    I think with people like Assad and whoever comes after him, that might be the way to go. A bit like a larger version of Rentokill except that the rats are nastier.

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  • "That was why I mentioned the Dutch peacekeepers in Bosnia, as they stood aside and allowed genocide to occur right in front of them. Any peacekeeper mission, must be allowed to use force and given the resources to enforce safe zones."


    And in Rwanda

    Excellent film shows just how bad the UN were, Hotel Rwanda staring Don Cheadle

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • Rwanda was disgusting and is probably the best example of when the UN gets it wrong, or can't be bothered.

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  • 1 The problem with Saudi Arabia is they know that the West is still dependent on their oil and that will remain for a generation until electric cars/battery tech matures. So, they sell us oil on one hand, while funding extremist mosques on the other. Playing both sides as they've always done.


    2 With Iran, we could turn that country around with a little effort and perhaps a revolution or two. Ii we used our intelligence agencies and worked on the young, which make up a bulk of that population, there is a chance the mullahs might lose their grip on power.

    1 As the West's demand for oil reduces, secondary sources can plug the gap. The supply-demand equation will soon cease to so heavily in Saudi Arabia's favour and unless they're totally without vision they must know their sway is waning.


    2 I fear you're romanticizing Iran's Persian past. I'm not sure how we in the West can "work on the young". If Darioush is an example of the Iranian young you have in mind to work on, it will need to be the development of total head transplants. Remember Hitler youth in the thirties singing "tomorrow belongs to me"? You think Europe or the US could have worked on them?

  • I have held back on this long enough. The people who died, died attempting to commit an illegal act, and that is to say they were attempting to enter a country illegally. I am not in favour of allowing any asylum seekers in, but these people are arguably worse. They obviously had the money to pay people traffickers, but instead of investing it into their country's economy they decided to come and live in the land of milk and honey. I do not wish any harm on anyone, but if any person decides to commit a crime and suffers as a result, then perhaps a lesson has been learned.

    At long last, the dumping of crocodile tears. I doubt it will stop them coming. They'll just need to check the lorry before they get in and make sure it can be opened from the inside and that they have the tools to break out.


    We laugh at Trump wanting to build a wall. Are we still laughing? Will we still be laughing if the illegal immigrants into Essex had got out of the lorry and dispersed, never to be found again? Remember, we don't know what is the percentage detection rate. If there are 10,000 lorries coming into Britain per day and 2% of those lorries contain illegal immigrants (say an average of 30 such immigrants) , and the detection rate is only 2% of all immigrant-containing lorries, that's practically near enough 2 lorry-loads of immigrants getting through undetected - that's 60 immigrants - per day - that's about 20,000 pr annum - to add to the ever-growing number washing dishes, opening a takeaway in a hole in the wall or driving us to some place in their Uber?


    You may well ask how an earth can a lorry with 30 immigrants hiding inside get past customs? Is it such high technology to use some scanning device to check for life inside the lorry and, if so, open the door to see whether it's animals or immigrants or the last few stragglers returning from their Thomas Cook holiday?

  • 2 I fear you're romanticizing Iran's Persian past. I'm not sure how we in the West can "work on the young". If Darioush is an example of the Iranian young you have in mind to work on, it will need to be the development of total head transplants. Remember Hitler youth in the thirties singing "tomorrow belongs to me"? You think Europe or the US could have worked on them?

    Compared to the Iranian youth in the 70s at the time of the Islamic revolution, yes, possibly.

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  • We laugh at Trump wanting to build a wall. Are we still laughing? Will we still be laughing if the illegal immigrants into Essex had got out of the lorry and dispersed, never to be found again?

    Happens every day.


    I live not too far from that location and you always see various people wandering around completely lost.


    Remember, we don't know what is the percentage detection rate. If there are 10,000 lorries coming into Britain per day and 2% of those lorries contain illegal immigrants (say an average of 30 such immigrants) , and the detection rate is only 2% of all immigrant-containing lorries, that's practically near enough 2 lorry-loads of immigrants getting through undetected - that's 60 immigrants - per day - that's about 20,000 pr annum - to add to the ever-growing number washing dishes, opening a takeaway in a hole in the wall or driving us to some place in their Uber?

    The last time I used a Uber, the driver had just got back from Islamabad. I'm pretty sure we kind find drivers from this country.


    As for your 20k per annum, I'd say more like six months and per port. I believe there are millions of illegals in London alone. Everything, all services, is just collapsing under the weight of numbers.

    You may well ask how an earth can a lorry with 30 immigrants hiding inside get past customs? Is it such high technology to use some scanning device to check for life inside the lorry and, if so, open the door to see whether it's animals or immigrants or the last few stragglers returning from their Thomas Cook holiday?

    Don't know for sure, but the problem is quantity of lorries. There needs to be some kind of shed that I mentioned earlier with built in scanning equipment that the lorries drive through without stopping and they get scanned.

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  • Haven't been through Calais for a few years, the jungle camp was still there then, when the place was awash with young men desperate to get to the UK

    We always made sure that the car doors were locked as we approached the port

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • "DIANE Abbott said the Government needs to make it easier for migrants to come to the UK and to stop seeing them as a problem.

    The Shadow Home Secretary told the BBC's Andrew Marr this morning that people with "legal" claim to live here should be helped to come after this week's tragic discovery in Essex."


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/…abbot-uk-migrant-britain/


    And the wonder why Labour's support is fading

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • The Green's and the Lib Dems are just as bad, if not worse.

    Long Live Rich People

  • The Green's and the Lib Dems are just as bad, if not worse.

    I don't know about the Greens but this is the LibDems policy


    https://www.libdems.org.uk/ten…-for-the-immigration-bill


    There is sense in this, without immigration the NHS will collapse as there are not enough doctors and dentists. No mater how many we train, as fast as they qualify they move on - USA particularly. Then there are agricultural workers, already growers are reporting about crops rotting because there is nobody to pick the stuff

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • There is sense in this, without immigration the NHS will collapse as there are not enough doctors and dentists.

    Is that a joke? The reason we need so many doctors and dentists is because of the high level of immigration (and health tourism) ... and not enough home grown being trained. What % of immigrants are doctors and dentists?


    Personally, I think it wrong to poach health professionals from other countries, and too many have poor English language skills, which can lead to difficulties and potential mistakes. Better all round if we were to train our own, and more opportunity for Brits to gain valuable training.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • If you have visited any hospital or even you local surgery you would see exactly how many immigrant doctors are working here. Then there are the Polish dentists

    I have had major surgery over the past few years and all the consultants/surgeons were from S Asia, and they were brilliant. Without them I would be dead

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I am ambivalent about immigration

    On the one hand we are overfull for our essential services, nut this could but be solved by increasing funding on those services

    On the other hand we need basic labour to work in health care and agricultural fields, the jobs that British workers will not do

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • That's fair enough bryan.


    I can't speak much on the subject now as the issue is ongoing and immediate for me, but I do have a problem with foreign workers in jobs that our own people should be doing, especially healthcare. Let me just say this, if you have experience of a hospital nurse, hospital doctor, GP or district nurse who is not British, cannot speak the language, well, it causes all "sorts" of issues. If they then have different priorities to what you expect, that then magnifies everything even more.


    Being ill is no fun and doesn't require any extra things to make the situation worse.

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  • That's fair enough bryan.


    I can't speak much on the subject now as the issue is ongoing and immediate for me, but I do have a problem with foreign workers in jobs that our own people should be doing, especially healthcare. Let me just say this, if you have experience of a hospital nurse, hospital doctor, GP or district nurse who is not British, cannot speak the language, well, it causes all "sorts" of issues. If they then have different priorities to what you expect, that then magnifies everything even more.


    Being ill is no fun and doesn't require any extra things to make the situation worse.

    I had such an experience last year, (half a lung removed) the ward I went to had only one English speaking nurse. I did complain, risking charges of racism, and was told that they just could not get local workers

    I then finished up in my local hospital where nearly all the staff were newly qualified British nurses which was much better. So it can be done

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • How are you feeling now? That sounded like a major operation.


    By the way, I'm not saying that a British person would always be better, I've had plenty of experience of bad ones, but at least they speak the same language and don't prioritise other groups.

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  • How are you feeling now? That sounded like a major operation.


    By the way, I'm not saying that a British person would always be better, I've had plenty of experience of bad ones, but at least they speak the same language and don't prioritise other groups.

    It was major, a diagnosis of a tiny nodule, confirmed as cancer, led to half the lung being removed. The surgeon said I was so lucky for such a very early diagnosis, he got it all and recommended no further treatment necessary

    The problem started when they sent me home with an infection that then turned into pneumonia, very dangerous at my age which required a three month stay in my local hospital which they eventually cleared. It knocked me for six and I am now slowly getting back on my feet, knocked back a bit by the bloody flu jab:thumbdown:

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • Glad to hear you're on the mend.:thumbup::thumbup::) Keep nice and warm over winter and you should be back 100% by the Spring.

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  • Hope so

    I should have added that I have two consultants at present, both from the Indian sub continent

    Without them I would probably be on my death bed now

    A Hand Up Not A Hand Out

  • I tend to be focused upon those people who vehemently support total free movement but never put their home or a room up for low rental, inviting as many immigrants as manageable to stay at their home. They are happy for particular towns to be "overly populated" with demands upon resources - schools - Doctors - housing et al.

  • I am ambivalent about immigration

    On the one hand we are overfull for our essential services, nut this could but be solved by increasing funding on those services

    On the other hand we need basic labour to work in health care and agricultural fields, the jobs that British workers will not do

    Come on make up your mind - there's no room for ambivalence for something as important as immigration and the lives of those immigrants. Should there be quotas, where prospective immigrants have to prove their qualifications prior to being given permission to enter the UK for example?

    There are none who do so much harm as those obsessed with doing good.


    People are far more more likely to believe a lie if they want it to be the truth.

  • The UK doesn't need foreign immigration. It needs reform from within.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore