The Great Debate on Immigration, Race and Religion in the UK

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  • In terms of what 'White' Britain could learn from 'Muslim' Britain, I'm not so sure, at their worst, that they are so far apart.


    just read or watch our tabloid media demonizing the young, single mothers, or those who simply enjoy the odd intoxicant/mindbender of a club night, then compare their attitudes with the stereotype of 'fundamentalist' Islam and I often cannot tell he difference.


    if the 'journalists' at the Mail or Express actually want to see in practise a regime where sobriety, the insistence on only marital sex, a belief in harsh punishment for contravention of social norms, the promotion of homophobia and such are insisted upon, they should realise they have more in common with 'radicalized' islam than they pretend.

  • just read or watch our tabloid media demonizing the young, single mothers, or those who simply enjoy the odd intoxicant/mindbender of a club night, then compare their attitudes with the stereotype of 'fundamentalist' Islam and I often cannot tell he difference.

    An occasional night out is fine, but if single mothers are regularly getting boozed up and clubbing rather than looking after their kids, that's not a good thing. Neither is the fundamentalist Islamic way either, of locking women up and treating them as slaves. Which is why British culture needs to dominate, just not the alcoholic fuelled version.

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  • Mod note:


    wizzywick  


    I have merged your thread titled "Anna Soubry Insists that "Very White" British People Could Learn From Muslims" into this thread.


    How this site will be organised in the future will be around central topics or super topics and series' or groups of topics. Rather than have lots of topics on very similar issues, my intention is to keep similar issues within the same central topics. I won't be too restrictive on this, but there will be some exceptions, one of them will be on the subject of race, religion and immigration in the UK which all tend to merge into one thing in the end, so I do intend to keep many of these issues within this central thread.


    Had the topic purely stayed on the subject of Souby and her views, then I would have left the thread as a standalone topic in its own right, but as it was starting to become more a generalised discussion on race and immigration, especially with the mention of the Rivers of Blood speech (I have plenty to say on this and will in the future) then I decided to merge that thread with this one.


    In a similar vein, I have merged Morgan 's thread on the elderly and homeless into your homeless thread and have given it the label "super topic" as I think it is a significant issue and again, I intend to keep most issues on homelessness within this central Super Topic.

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  • London Eye lit up to mark Diwali for first time.

    The above link takes you to a very nice BBC vid of the London eye being lit up. I love the London Eye and its great when its lit up with different colours to celebrate the New Year, but this isn't the New Year, it's Diwali.


    Unless I have missed something, Diwali is not a British celebration but one that stems from India, so why are we celebrating it? Does India celebrate our customs like Christmas or Easter? I don't think so


    Remember when Red Ken started the London St Patrick's Day parades? Not St George's day parades, but a foreign (Irish) celebration.


    Why do we celebrate foreign customs, is it not better to celebrate our own traditions?

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  • Yes, but the incumbent ideology is that all our customs are rubbish and multiculturalism is the way to go to finally demolish them and remove them from the nation's memory banks by replacing them, or making the dual ones seem more exciting and relevant.


    The people could put a stop to it by complaining in large numbers but as this creates an opportunity for the incumbent enforcers to go overboard on accusations of racism, and nastiness and then to go in for a bit of old fashioned shunning and finger pointing no one really wants to say anything. So the people humbly take the crap heaped up upon their ancestral heritage year after year. The incumbent ideologues know that if they keep this up there will soon come a time when no one will complain. It isn't the first time this has happened in history, but as no one is allowed to have any relevant history anymore, no one can learn from it.


    Neat, hey? Very neat and very effective and proven by previous successful efforts. The new fascism. Breathe deeply and nod. While you still have a head on your shoulders.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • Not sure about India but I've seen Christmas celebrated in Thailand, even though there is no public holiday.


    I think it's a shame St George's Day gets ignored, although I think less so these days.

  • If it were England's Day it would be celebrated with gusto. George is a patron saint of Asia Minor and so has nothing whatsoever to do with England.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • Not sure about India but I've seen Christmas celebrated in Thailand, even though there is no public holiday.

    Probably to keep all the American tourists happy.


    I think it's a shame St George's Day gets ignored, although I think less so these days.

    Agree. But I don't see why we are celebrating foreign religious festivals which have nothing to do with us.

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  • Yes, but the incumbent ideology is that all our customs are rubbish and multiculturalism is the way to go to finally demolish them and remove them from the nation's memory banks by replacing them, or making the dual ones seem more exciting and relevant.


    The people could put a stop to it by complaining in large numbers but as this creates an opportunity for the incumbent enforcers to go overboard on accusations of racism, and nastiness and then to go in for a bit of old fashioned shunning and finger pointing no one really wants to say anything. So the people humbly take the crap heaped up upon their ancestral heritage year after year. The incumbent ideologues know that if they keep this up there will soon come a time when no one will complain. It isn't the first time this has happened in history, but as no one is allowed to have any relevant history anymore, no one can learn from it.


    Neat, hey? Very neat and very effective and proven by previous successful efforts. The new fascism. Breathe deeply and nod. While you still have a head on your shoulders.

    I'm not suggesting stop celebrating these foreign customs, but I would prefer that Britain concentrated on its own customs first.

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  • That's the whole problem, they want indigenous customs to fade. Strong identity creates their anathema worldview. They are willing to do almost anything to kill it.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • You'll probably throw proverbial bricks at me here, LW, but I'm all for the one world, one people, one language, lets all hug each other (to use one of your favourite terms:)) guff, problem is, that won't happen now. If it happens at all, it's centuries away, yet there seems to almost be a conspiracy by the elites to merge everyone, all peoples, races, religions together now. It won't happen, people will resist this and are, Brexit, the rise of AFD in Germany, Trump etc.


    I see it a bit like osmosis, but instead of water leaking through the cracks, it needs to be all the peoples of the world that leak through and come together on their own and leave the other elements, the religions, different races etc behind.

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  • I have a lot of sympathy will the heartfelt analysis by Little Wing above. I now watch Channel 4 for the masochistic stimulation of squirming with embarrassment and issuing mental Fatwas against the whole wretched gang of them. Maybe when the men in white coats wheel off Jon Snow there will be a re-tuning. I doubt it though - his disciples are chips off the same block of fanatical or mindless liberals or Useful Idiots


    Of course, it's not just Ch 4. Honest analysis of the problem and route-cause solution is being suffocated by a welter of G.A.S (Group Accepted Sentiment) which is far more insidious than the superficiality of Political Correctness and, thanks to the rise of Popular Democracy, otherwise known as mob rule, Governments have over-interpreted the meaning of public servant to a point where they follow rather than lead the voting mob, partly to stay or win power and partly to avoid the discomfort of having to walk through life with their head down and wearing a bullet proof vest.


    Yes, yes, a blood & mud splattered hungry waif in a refugee camp is distressing to behold. And a drowned one in the arms of its dad arriving in a dinghy to the seashore below the White Cliffs of Dover is even more distressing. Let them all in! Just like with Jews escaping from the pogroms or the Holocaust. Anyone who demurs against that must have photos of Hitler and Dr Mengele on their bedroom wall.


    Yet is there no one willing to say, or able to get what they say past the newspaper moderators, or willing to risk becoming a social outcast, that:


    1) our social and economic structure cannot accommodate a whole continental shift from Africa, Middle East and other countries that are - or are behaving as, Third World.


    2) those who subscribe to Muslim or Islamic values are striving for hegemony in Europe and the West


    3) those who do not subscribe to Muslim or Islamic values are classified as infidels or non-believers and as such will be re-educated or subjugated or exterminated


    4) an overwhelming majority of acts of terrorism in Europe are committed by people who are Muslim by birth or radicalisation or connected with a Muslim or Islamic movement. This is less true in the US because (a) gun ownership has a large share of terrorism, is uncontrolled and Republicans don't want to lose the votes of gun nutters, (b) the US is a lot more fussy than Europe about not letting in ALL the "tired and huddled masses", (c) the US teaches what citizenship is all about and demands it from those let in.


    5) de-radicalisation doesn't work. Or at least hardly ever. I know this from talking to senior people working in that area


    6) it is impossible to identify and filter out Muslim/Islamic believers who are existing or latent terrorists. This is because unlike the degrees of religious devoutness among Jews (Hassidic, Orthodox, Traditional, Liberal, Reform, or non-participation), in almost all cases there is no such thing as being just slightly Muslim. There isn't a Muslim equivalent to Jonathan Miller's remark "I'm not a Jew, I'm more Jew-ish.


    7) Muslims have a higher birthrate than us infidels and even when their life is hell and they are not even remotely self-sufficient, they still cannot help but breed. No one in Europe and the West is prepared to address this problem or even comment on it.


    8) We already know it is not a good idea to feed pigeons or mosquitoes. It is too hateful for words to extend that argument to the never ending food, shelter and medicine which we provide to the never-ending line of Muslims seeking to leave their original destroyed or neglected places of birth in favour of just about any other place willing to take them or which can't resist or repel them for fear of being accused of ethnic cleansing and shunned or sanctioned.


    If all of the above could be honestly debated rather than suppressed we would be well on the way to solving this global crisis

  • I now watch Channel 4

    You should be given an award, just for that!^^ If you get a chance, head off to the media section to see what some of us think about our broadcasters.

    Yet is there no one willing to say, or able to get what they say past the newspaper moderators,

    One of the reasons for creating this site. As long as its within the law, say what you want. And perhaps one day, we'll have free speech, so we can really say what we want.

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  • 1) our social and economic structure cannot accommodate a whole continental shift from Africa, Middle East and other countries that are - or are behaving as, Third World.

    Agree. If those places are so great, why do they all want to go to the West?

    2) those who subscribe to Muslim or Islamic values are striving for hegemony in Europe and the West

    Not sure about that, but I doubt it. People from that backgrounds are obviously comfortable with those of similar background and customs to themselves. I think its only a minority who want to force their "values" on to others.


    3) those who do not subscribe to Muslim or Islamic values are classified as infidels or non-believers and as such will be re-educated or subjugated or exterminated

    Only the Islamists want this. If all Muslims felt like this, we'd be fooked.

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  • 4) an overwhelming majority of acts of terrorism in Europe are committed by people who are Muslim by birth or radicalisation or connected with a Muslim or Islamic movement. This is less true in the US because (a) gun ownership has a large share of terrorism, is uncontrolled and Republicans don't want to lose the votes of gun nutters, (b) the US is a lot more fussy than Europe about not letting in ALL the "tired and huddled masses", (c) the US teaches what citizenship is all about and demands it from those let in.

    I certainly wouldn't take lessons from the Americans on integration, so disagree with you on that, but the first sentence is self evident. It's not Christian people doing all these terrorist acts - that was all in previous centuries!

    5) de-radicalisation doesn't work. Or at least hardly ever. I know this from talking to senior people working in that area

    Can't comment either way, so don't know. I think once someone's mind has been programmed a certain way, I imagine it would be difficult to reprogram them back again, a bit like people in American religious cults.

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  • 6) it is impossible to identify and filter out Muslim/Islamic believers who are existing or latent terrorists. This is because unlike the degrees of religious devoutness among Jews (Hassidic, Orthodox, Traditional, Liberal, Reform, or non-participation), in almost all cases there is no such thing as being just slightly Muslim. There isn't a Muslim equivalent to Jonathan Miller's remark "I'm not a Jew, I'm more Jew-ish.

    Disagree on this.


    My household gets visited by an ambulance three times a week driven by a "Muslim" who goes out partying on Saturday nights and drinks alcohol. Some Muslims are devout, some less devout, some less devout still. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.


    On the identifying terrorists point, well those coming back from Syria and Iraq would be a good place to start! You can't tell what is in someone's mind, but you can go by their actions, such as looking at extremist websites, so disagree with you on this.


    The question that I think should be asked is, while its easy to identify potential Islamic terrorists, why isn't anything done about them? If it were me, I'd send them on the first plane back to Saudi Arabia or whatever "paradise" they wish to go to.

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  • 7) Muslims have a higher birthrate than us infidels and even when their life is hell and they are not even remotely self-sufficient, they still cannot help but breed. No one in Europe and the West is prepared to address this problem or even comment on it.

    People from less developed countries do breed more, I agree, just like we used to. As education rises, so will their birth rates decline,, but in the meantime.... If an indigenous population has two kids and newcomers have four, then the indigenous population will eventually get out bred.


    I got banned from a site once by saying that immigration should never have gone above 5% of the indigenous population of this country and really there needs to begin talk of reducing the immigration population by sending those that do not obey our laws back to whence they came from.

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  • We already know it is not a good idea to feed pigeons or mosquitoes. It is too hateful for words to extend that argument to the never ending food, shelter and medicine which we provide to the never-ending line of Muslims seeking to leave their original destroyed or neglected places of birth in favour of just about any other place willing to take them or which can't resist or repel them for fear of being accused of ethnic cleansing and shunned or sanctioned.


    If all of the above could be honestly debated rather than suppressed we would be well on the way to solving this global crisis

    That's a massive topic, in itself, briefly:


    My views are that we should help those from war or devastation. The only reason millions came to Europe from Syria was Assad was gassing them from one side and ISIS beheading people from another side. Terrible, terrible. I would have obliterated Assad's regime and bombed ISIS into oblivion four years ago.


    Helping those from war torn countries or devastation, is not the same as having a open door immigration policy to everyone. Perhaps some people from worn torn countries could be temporarily housed in Britain with the understanding that they would have to go back when the war is over. But most efforts should be put into countries that surround war zones, like Jordan.


    The Jordanians have helped millions of Syrians but are at chock-a-block and received little outside assistance. The West and others should be poring money into Jordan and other countries to help them deal with the Syrian refugees and keep them in the region, rather than have a open door policy and invite them here. Look at the effect of Merkel's invitation to them.

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  • Probably to keep all the American tourists happy.


    Agree. But I don't see why we are celebrating foreign religious festivals which have nothing to do with us.

    No, there's not many American tourists and you'll find decorations in all the malls, not so much in tourist areas. It's more pushing the commercial side of course, but then that's similar here.

  • Mr Wing has just come home with a little paper plate of charming Diwali cakes gifted to him by a Hindu lady with whom he works. A gesture from her culture and much appreciated as it is a sign of respect and affection. She had a Sri Lankan colleague who emigrated to Australia recently who used to love the celebrations of Christmas and always had a tree and decorations. She is a Buddhist. There is a Muslim colleague who has two wives, one of whom is a Roman Catholic, loves his dogs and enjoys a beer. Mr Wing is a dyed in the wool atheist.


    The human species is diverse, I wish neo-liberals could comprehend this and I doubly wish that they would stop trying to foist their awful increasingly fascist creed onto all of us. It's causing more trouble in the world than anything at the moment as it is making brainwashed acolytes of their confounded humanist belief system act against every scrap of common sense built up over centuries of experience.


    On the topic of overpopulation, the fiasco that was Kosovo is a good case in point. The Serbs were quite literally outnumbered by a policy, that is part of the Islamic belief system, an injunction to outbreed the enemy. A form of passive offensive and Kosovo is what happened. Once 25% Muslim and before the Serbs could say Jack Robinskov it was 75% and Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were there supporting the non-Serbian side with the strength of a military that was impossible to overcome. I remember the expressions of pure joy and triumph on the faces of liberal warmongers as they trounced the hated Serbs and waved their little scented hankies at Muslim revolutionaries. It was disgusting and depressing.


    The same thing is going to happen elsewhere and it will result, by sheer necessity, in the mother of all backlashes. And if not, then the west, as such and in general, is going to be fooked and by its own hand.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • On the topic of overpopulation, the fiasco that was Kosovo is a good case in point. The Serbs were quite literally outnumbered by a policy, that is part of the Islamic belief system, an injunction to outbreed the enemy. A form of passive offensive and Kosovo is what happened. Once 25% Muslim and before the Serbs could say Jack Robinskov it was 75% and Tony Blair and Bill Clinton were there supporting the non-Serbian side with the strength of a military that was impossible to overcome. I remember the expressions of pure joy and triumph on the faces of liberal warmongers as they trounced the hated Serbs and waved their little scented hankies at Muslim revolutionaries. It was disgusting and depressing.

    This is a very different situation to the UK. Muslims have always been indigenous to Kosovo (and Bosnia).


    The war against Muslim Bosnians (and Kosovons) was started by ultra nationalist Serbs and Croats and the reason for NATO involvement was due to the disgusting acts carried out by Serbs and Croats against the Muslim minorities in those regions which later became countries.


    What was disgusting and depressing was things like the massacre of boys and men in Srebrenica by Serbs on Muslims.


    I totally supported NATO's actions in Yugoslavia.

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  • You should be given an award, just for that!^^ If you get a chance, head off to the media section to see what some of us think about our broadcasters.

    One of the reasons for creating this site. As long as its within the law, say what you want. And perhaps one day, we'll have free speech, so we can really say what we want.

    Bless you for saying that. Like many on this forum I've given up contributing in The Times

  • Bless you for saying that. Like many on this forum I've given up contributing in The Times

    I don't know what their (or others) problem is. As long as comments are lawful, are we not allowed to give an opinion?


    Of course, we all know what the issue is, and that's you must be 100% pro unlimited immigration, multicultural, multiracial, multi religious and if you're not, you are the same as Hitler. Total bollocks.


    I take each individual as I see them regardless of race, religion, creed etc, but that does not mean I want my country to be turned into another Nigeria or worse, Saudi Arabia.

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  • My views are that we should help those from war or devastation.

    That seems to be a massive chunk of the Middle East and Africa and all of the Muslim traipsing between Burma and Bangladesh.


    The only reason millions came to Europe from Syria was Assad was gassing them from one side and ISIS beheading people from another side. Terrible, terrible. I would have obliterated Assad's regime and bombed ISIS into oblivion four years ago.

    And once we've obliterated Assad and Isis, those remaining will generate new waring factions. It's what they do. If only there hadn't been oil that region and if only we hadn't been compelled to grab a piece of that action, most of the Middle East would have killed one another and a few would eased themselves into the 21st century.


    Helping those from war torn countries or devastation, is not the same as having a open door immigration policy to everyone.

    It shouldn't be but it is. Merkel demonstrated that. She still doesn't get it. Or won't admit it.


    Perhaps some people from worn torn countries could be temporarily housed in Britain with the understanding that they would have to go back when the war is over.

    Which was is that? The one they escaped from? The one that has started up just when we were hoping they would go home? Or the one that will start up shortly after their return? And while hanging around in Britain what are they doing that is, if not a burden on the economy and social structure, at least not a threat?


    But most efforts should be put into countries that surround war zones, like Jordan.


    The Jordanians have helped millions of Syrians but are at chock-a-block and received little outside assistance. The West and others should be poring money into Jordan and other countries to help them deal with the Syrian refugees and keep them in the region, rather than have a open door policy and invite them here. Look at the effect of Merkel's invitation to them

    Couldn't agree more with every word you say here. But the Muslims traipsing between Burma and Bangladesh, who is going to want to help them? Why would any non-Muslim country want to help such people? Their whole life style, and beliefs are an imposition, burden and threat to any country that accommodates them. There is no choice but to repel them. To give birth to a child in such hopeless conditions is either insane or sinful

  • Rob, I'm unable to quote your posts, because you've put them all in a quote box as if I've said it all. Can you try and re edit your post? As said before, just highlight text you want to respond to and you'll get a pop up box to insert or save the quotes.

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  • That seems to be a massive chunk of the Middle East and Africa and all of the Muslim traipsing between Burma and Bangladesh.

    Those suffering from war should always be helped by the rich and powerful countries.


    And once we've obliterated Assad and Isis, those remaining will generate new waring factions. It's what they do. If only there hadn't been oil that region and if only we hadn't been compelled to grab a piece of that action, most of the Middle East would have killed one another and a few would eased themselves into the 21st century.

    I agree that the region will remain unstable for a long time to come.

    It shouldn't be but it is. Merkel demonstrated that. She still doesn't get it. Or won't admit it.

    Merkel's invite was all to do with German pensions and nothing to do with helping those displaced from war torn Syria.

    Which was is that? The one they escaped from? The one that has started up just when we were hoping they would go home? Or the one that will start up shortly after their return? And while hanging around in Britain what are they doing that is, if not a burden on the economy and social structure, at least not a threat?

    Fair points, hence my remarks about trying to keep them in the regions from where they came from.

    Couldn't agree more with every word you say here. But the Muslims traipsing between Burma and Bangladesh, who is going to want to help them? Why would any non-Muslim country want to help such people? Their whole life style, and beliefs are an imposition, burden and threat to any country that accommodates them. There is no choice but to repel them. To give birth to a child in such hopeless conditions is either insane or sinful

    The Rohingya are "traipsing" around as you put it, because they are being exterminated and driven from their homes.

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