The Great Debate on Immigration

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    Andrew Neil has made the famous point (all over youtube) that liberals have got their way for the last 60 years and now with Trump and Brexit the tide is turning and they don't like it. As he goes on to say, if you're used to getting your own way and then that changes, its hard to accept.


    I am as sick as you about being told the country is divided, I assume they are going purely by the Brexit vote figures. But if you take out London (which is now majority from foreign origins) and just use the rest of the country as a gauge, a vast majority voted leave and we're not divided, not on this issue.

  • Andrew Neil has made the famous point (all over youtube) that liberals have got their way for the last 60 years and now with Trump and Brexit the tide is turning and they don't like it. As he goes on to say, if you're used to getting your own way and then that changes, its hard to accept.


    I am as sick as you about being told the country is divided, I assume they are going purely by the Brexit vote figures. But if you take out London (which is now majority from foreign origins) and just use the rest of the country as a gauge, a vast majority voted leave and we're not divided, not on this issue.

    Yes, agree with every word. The consensus amongst Remain voters outside the big cities is also "Get on with it and move on". The media is London-centric and wrongly believe that the whole country share their views. English people as a whole, voted Leave. As did the Welsh. I do not know any leave voter who has changed their mind. The more the EU keep on at us, the stronger their views become.

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    I think it's tone and language that is on trial rather than the content. Anna Soubry has already caused controversy by insulting her constituents for voting leave. She publicly said that her friend's business might fail if she (her friend) was unable to employ Eastern Europeans. I do get that faith is misunderstood, but whilst suggesting Muslims stick together, she is inadvertently advocating a divided "them and us" society. Brits do stick together and we are not as divided as MP's like to pretend we are. After all, in a democracy there will always be issues that divide us. And, the dimishing of our faith may also contribute to a lack of understanding towards other cultures.


    I think MP's though, need to be careful about how they say things, because whilst they are clearly appeasing ethnic groups, they risk alienating their core white voters. The very same voters who felt aggrieved enough to vote leave to begin with.

    This was something that that some of the old Labour MPs like Frank Field and Kate Hoey were trying to get across to their colleagues. The MPs are there to represent the people, not play out some liberal agenda or wackjob hard left agenda.


    May I advise you to stay away from Vince Cable's leader's speech that he gave yesterday, you won't like it.;)

  • As a white English person I resent anyone telling me I need to learn from people, as though our own history doesn't tell us enough about the sheer brutality of throne grabbing, internecine warfare, labour abuse, and religious intolerance, as well as civilization, law, codes of conduct and solidarity.


    The Muslim icon is the latest trendy thing and so no matter how many bombs go off and no matter how many soldiers are beheaded in the street and no matter how many citizens get wiped out by being rammed with trucks or shot at in mass murders, they will continue to worship their trendy (and useful) icons.


    This can do a lot of damage, especially when politicians pander to it and the media is about as trustworthy as an adder in a backpack.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • As a white English person I resent anyone telling me I need to learn from people, as though our own history doesn't tell us enough about the sheer brutality of throne grabbing, internecine warfare, labour abuse, and religious intolerance, as well as civilization, law, codes of conduct and solidarity.


    The Muslim icon is the latest trendy thing and so no matter how many bombs go off and no matter how many soldiers are beheaded in the street and no matter how many citizens get wiped out by being rammed with trucks or shot at in mass murders, they will continue to worship their trendy (and useful) icons.


    This can do a lot of damage, especially when politicians pander to it and the media is about as trustworthy as an adder in a backpack.

    I'm not old enough to remember Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech he made many years ago. I wasn't born until 1968! But, I am aware of it and I have read about it and even read the speech in its entirety. At the time he was branded by the left as a racist, a bigot. Harold Wilson's Government frantically imploding in on themselves through faux outrage and disgust. But also knowing that what Enoch Powell said, was what people in the streets were saying and how they were feeling about the country at the time. "The black man will have the whip over the white man" he said, allegedly using the words of a constituent. But Powell was probably the only politician to stand up and say something that not only resonated with the public, but was directly addressing the concerns the public had. Whether his anti-immigration speech (although he wasn't actually anti-immigration, he was more of a "enough is enough" type of person) had any effect in helping Ted Heath secure a surprise majority in 1970 is another debate.


    But it seems these type of things go around in cycles. Politicians of all parties since Powell, have diverted the immigration problem. Ignoring the views of the people who voted for them. Not listening to what was being said. People not actually saying that they want immigration stopped, but just asking their elected representatives to do something about the increasingly higher numbers of migrants. Control it. Fast Forward nearly 50 years, and another politician, Nigel Farage, pops up and does an Enoch Powell. He tells people what they have been wanting a politician to say. That they are not racists, they are not bigots, they are not xenophobes. They are just patriotic individuals concerned about the rapidly changing environment of their once familiar community. No one asked them if they wanted it to change in the way it did. No one asked them if they minded that their language should be undermined by those that can't be bothered to speak it yet insist we learn about what they want and how we can be taught lessons from them.


    I too have extreme difficulty in accepting from other politicians, sermons on how I must be tolerant. On why I should learn from "Muslims" and why millions of Eastern Europeans coming here and setting up hand car wash services is better than training Brits into job roles that would entice them to stay in the same job for many years. Isn't that better for productivity rather than getting staff on the cheap that swap and change every three months because some of them know the rules and clear off back to where they came from for a further three months before coming back and resuming the role they had previously swapped places with someone else?


    Anna Soubry is speaking as if we are the most hateful, divided, intolerant and racist country on earth. If there are divisions, then I blame that largely on social media and facebook and twitter in particular. People sitting in their living rooms clicking away agreeing with like minded individuals. Wrongly believing that the whole world shares their view. When they discover that most people have their own view, and often one they don't agree with, they can't handle it. Hence why all the labels and names have been attached to so many people in recent years. And then Soubry pops up and tells us all to be good little people who should learn from a sector of the community who has no intention or desire, to learn from its host community. Will these preachy MP's ever learn? The same applies when Labour MP's stand up with signs saying "Refugees Welcome Here" attached to their breasts. Who are they speaking up for? Themselves or the people they voted for. Genuinely persecuted people should always be welcomed, but wearing signs to state something that voters might not agree with, is not "getting" it is it? It shows that actually, MP's do not listen to, or care about, what voters say or think.


    It's like all this furore and outrage over the comments Jacob Rees-Mogg said regarding his catholic views on anti-abortion and gay marriage. Now, people don't have to agree with his views, but he should not be condemned for having them, considering as they stem from a religious belief. Are we now at the point where we have to tolerate the religious views of others because they are ethnic minorities but must condemn views of our fellow countrymen? Have people forgotten what democracy is about? People have views, people vote based on views, if those with views we disagree with are not the victors of a vote, the views don't get implemented. Simple! Installing views on people because they find alternatives uncomfortable, is not democracy.


    Here is Enoch Powell's speech in full for anyone who wants to read it. It's surprisingly perceptive:


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/com…vers-of-Blood-speech.html

  • I have been trying to support the British (and especially the English) cause for independence and a maintenance of the civilization to which all of the descendants of Britain belong, for seventeen years on the internet. I have been called a left wing spy by the far right, a racist by the liberals and a dangerous, mad, drug addict, alcoholic deviant by the mob who rove the internet, trolling anyone who has anything to say about what has happened, what is happening and who doesn't think that the platitudes of trendy ideologies are going to fix anything. I am against the new age love-heart balloon holding, candle lighting, teddy hugging faux mourners of Islamic attacks and I detest with a passion the moral supremacy that has grown in those who have been brainwashed by the disgusting antics of the media and the sly operations of politics.


    If you do what you have just done in your post above and mention the truth about certain unwise events and decisions, both past and present, you are destined to be trolled to death and libelled, lied about and dragged through the muck.


    I'm exhausted with it, to be honest, but I am not exhausted with my heritage and I am enormously concerned that the people from whom we stem, our biological pool, our rights to exist and to protest, and our creative potential, future and dignity are being slowly but surely ground into extinction by a now large and worryingly crackpot globalised mindset of acolytes with an idea of multiculturalism and an ambition to create one world, one race and one government.


    They don't see the irony of similarity to some of the perilous dictators and imperialists of the past. They see only butterflies of joy and fluffy sentimental journeys to peace and "love" if we all only kneel before the glimmering dome of the new Church of One.


    Creepy? Yes. Possible? Already happening.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • Politicians today are mostly hand in glove with corporate powers. They have no interest in what the people want, all they need from us is the vote so they can perpetuate the farce of democracy. They will lie and cheat and make false promises to get the vote. Once they have it, they continue their exclusive and mutually beneficial relationship with big business.


    Not all politicians are like this but those who aren't often get shafted early by those who are and the media is often at the forefront of making that happen. Because the media is an arm of corporate power.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • It's such a pity that Soubry didn't point out that there is a great deal that 'very black ' (And not so black ) people can learn from white people too. Like not forming rival street gangs and stabbing and shooting each other perhaps.


    Respect for women and their role, respect for the forces of law and order in the execution of their duty and not expecting police officers to remove their shoes while doing it. ( "Hold my gun a minute sarge. I must take my shoes off before entering this mosque." comes to mind.)


    Or perhaps she could explain to those she thinks we can learn from why she thinks they should support same sex marriages and gay rights. Not that she'd be allowed into many mosques to preach her message of course. Many mosques ban women altogether.

  • In terms of what 'White' Britain could learn from 'Muslim' Britain, I'm not so sure, at their worst, that they are so far apart.


    just read or watch our tabloid media demonizing the young, single mothers, or those who simply enjoy the odd intoxicant/mindbender of a club night, then compare their attitudes with the stereotype of 'fundamentalist' Islam and I often cannot tell he difference.


    if the 'journalists' at the Mail or Express actually want to see in practise a regime where sobriety, the insistence on only marital sex, a belief in harsh punishment for contravention of social norms, the promotion of homophobia and such are insisted upon, they should realise they have more in common with 'radicalized' islam than they pretend.

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    just read or watch our tabloid media demonizing the young, single mothers, or those who simply enjoy the odd intoxicant/mindbender of a club night, then compare their attitudes with the stereotype of 'fundamentalist' Islam and I often cannot tell he difference.

    An occasional night out is fine, but if single mothers are regularly getting boozed up and clubbing rather than looking after their kids, that's not a good thing. Neither is the fundamentalist Islamic way either, of locking women up and treating them as slaves. Which is why British culture needs to dominate, just not the alcoholic fuelled version.

  • A question of what came first perhaps. Did the single mother go to the club or is she a single mother because she went there on a bender.

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    Mod note:


    wizzywick


    I have merged your thread titled "Anna Soubry Insists that "Very White" British People Could Learn From Muslims" into this thread.


    How this site will be organised in the future will be around central topics or super topics and series' or groups of topics. Rather than have lots of topics on very similar issues, my intention is to keep similar issues within the same central topics. I won't be too restrictive on this, but there will be some exceptions, one of them will be on the subject of race, religion and immigration in the UK which all tend to merge into one thing in the end, so I do intend to keep many of these issues within this central thread.


    Had the topic purely stayed on the subject of Souby and her views, then I would have left the thread as a standalone topic in its own right, but as it was starting to become more a generalised discussion on race and immigration, especially with the mention of the Rivers of Blood speech (I have plenty to say on this and will in the future) then I decided to merge that thread with this one.


    In a similar vein, I have merged @Morgan 's thread on the elderly and homeless into your homeless thread and have given it the label "super topic" as I think it is a significant issue and again, I intend to keep most issues on homelessness within this central Super Topic.

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    London Eye lit up to mark Diwali for first time.

    The above link takes you to a very nice BBC vid of the London eye being lit up. I love the London Eye and its great when its lit up with different colours to celebrate the New Year, but this isn't the New Year, it's Diwali.


    Unless I have missed something, Diwali is not a British celebration but one that stems from India, so why are we celebrating it? Does India celebrate our customs like Christmas or Easter? I don't think so


    Remember when Red Ken started the London St Patrick's Day parades? Not St George's day parades, but a foreign (Irish) celebration.


    Why do we celebrate foreign customs, is it not better to celebrate our own traditions?

  • Yes, but the incumbent ideology is that all our customs are rubbish and multiculturalism is the way to go to finally demolish them and remove them from the nation's memory banks by replacing them, or making the dual ones seem more exciting and relevant.


    The people could put a stop to it by complaining in large numbers but as this creates an opportunity for the incumbent enforcers to go overboard on accusations of racism, and nastiness and then to go in for a bit of old fashioned shunning and finger pointing no one really wants to say anything. So the people humbly take the crap heaped up upon their ancestral heritage year after year. The incumbent ideologues know that if they keep this up there will soon come a time when no one will complain. It isn't the first time this has happened in history, but as no one is allowed to have any relevant history anymore, no one can learn from it.


    Neat, hey? Very neat and very effective and proven by previous successful efforts. The new fascism. Breathe deeply and nod. While you still have a head on your shoulders.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

  • Not sure about India but I've seen Christmas celebrated in Thailand, even though there is no public holiday.


    I think it's a shame St George's Day gets ignored, although I think less so these days.

  • If it were England's Day it would be celebrated with gusto. George is a patron saint of Asia Minor and so has nothing whatsoever to do with England.

    The vagabond who's rapping at your door

    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore

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    Not sure about India but I've seen Christmas celebrated in Thailand, even though there is no public holiday.

    Probably to keep all the American tourists happy.


    I think it's a shame St George's Day gets ignored, although I think less so these days.

    Agree. But I don't see why we are celebrating foreign religious festivals which have nothing to do with us.

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    Yes, but the incumbent ideology is that all our customs are rubbish and multiculturalism is the way to go to finally demolish them and remove them from the nation's memory banks by replacing them, or making the dual ones seem more exciting and relevant.


    The people could put a stop to it by complaining in large numbers but as this creates an opportunity for the incumbent enforcers to go overboard on accusations of racism, and nastiness and then to go in for a bit of old fashioned shunning and finger pointing no one really wants to say anything. So the people humbly take the crap heaped up upon their ancestral heritage year after year. The incumbent ideologues know that if they keep this up there will soon come a time when no one will complain. It isn't the first time this has happened in history, but as no one is allowed to have any relevant history anymore, no one can learn from it.


    Neat, hey? Very neat and very effective and proven by previous successful efforts. The new fascism. Breathe deeply and nod. While you still have a head on your shoulders.

    I'm not suggesting stop celebrating these foreign customs, but I would prefer that Britain concentrated on its own customs first.

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