The Great NHS debate

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  • The NHS is a lumbering most inefficient organisation yet it is the best we have got, and admired worldwide. Treatment is available that does not depend on the ability to pay

    Critics forget what it was like before it was created

    Under the Tories for the past ten years it has been badly underfunded which has led to the present difficulties, a situation Johnson has recognised and promised massive investment to rectify

    Don't start that "It's all the Tories' fault again. We've already had this argument. Labour would have put less money into the NHS after the 2010 government came to power, and they admitted this at the time.

    The NHS has been getting steadily worse over the years under both political parties. The problem is, we cannot continue to afford to put more and more money into it. Root and branch reform is long overdue, but the problem is how to go about it.

    Politicisation of this dilemma is not wanted by the NHS staff themselves on the whole, they just want the whole system to work better, as do most people. Despite what you say, Bryan, it is no longer the envy of the world. We need to regain that status instead of simply watching the whole thing decay.

    Incidentally, I did say in my post that it needs to continue to be free at the point of delivery. Most people are agreed on that.

  • Don't start that "It's all the Tories' fault again. We've already had this argument. Labour would have put less money into the NHS after the 2010 government came to power, and they admitted this at the time.

    The NHS has been getting steadily worse over the years under both political parties. The problem is, we cannot continue to afford to put more and more money into it. Root and branch reform is long overdue, but the problem is how to go about it.

    Politicisation of this dilemma is not wanted by the NHS staff themselves on the whole, they just want the whole system to work better, as do most people. Despite what you say, Bryan, it is no longer the envy of the world. We need to regain that status instead of simply watching the whole thing decay.

    Incidentally, I did say in my post that it needs to continue to be free at the point of delivery. Most people are agreed on that.

    Nigel Lawson called the NHS "The nearest thing to a national religion that Britain has." I can see where he was coming from.

    The Tories tried to kill it at birth and failed. Ever since then they've been trying to get rid of it. Labour have made mistakes in its administration too. Mostly, I believe, due to political pressures rather than any ideological reason. In Labour ideology, the NHS is the primary example of a state run service which is popular and has a direct and necessary benefit to the people. They have never wanted to get rid of it, they have just allowed their sense of purpose slide when faced with political pressure. Shamefully for them, at those times they put party before country.

    The Tories do have an ideological reason for wanting to kill it though. State owned. Expensive. Monolithic. A political minefield to run and a black hole that money disappears into at a - for them - terrifying rate.

    But the British people love it. We love it because it we know that it is run by magnificent people who put our well being above any other consideration. If one of us is in a car crash, the ambulance team that arrive don't ask us for a credit card. They just care for us. When we get into hospital for an operation of any kind, we are made to feel that we matter. Our life matters. They are going to do all they can to restore us to health. We know the staff are overworked and underpaid and yet they never fail to give us their all.

    We TRUST our doctors and nurses.

    This is why the NHS is a political dilemma neither party can quite get right.

    Down the years, Labour have done their best, although their best has been found wanting at times. The Tories want to get rid of it but can't because whenever they have had the will and the opportunity, they have known they'd be signing their death warrant for the next election.

    I am in no doubt that the Tories were planning to sell the NHS out to the USA as part of a trade deal. American Big Pharma wants to take control of the nation's medication and American insurance companies were licking their lips at the thought of a potential 66 million new customers to exploit. I am in no doubt at all that that was going to be the price of our hormone injected beef and chlorinated chicken.

    But Coronavirus has changed all that. I dare Boris Johnson to sell out the NHS now. I double dare him. I double-dog dare him. He might as well get a gun and blow his own brain out (although I'm not entirely sure he's that good a shot) if he so much as hints at a sell off.

    Coronavirus has put any sale of the NHS back by at least ten years. Minimum. ....and only then if there is a Tory government. Between now and then, the government is going to have to do something that they'll choke on. They're going to have to fund it. And smile while doing it.

    Because if they don't, there will be plenty of people ready to remind everybody about the events of this year and hold them to account. Those images of Johnson standing on the steps of Downing Street at the Thursday clap-in, or going on TV and telling us all how grateful he is to the "magnificent" people who saved his wretched life will ring hollow indeed. The word 'betrayal' wouldn't get anywhere near the half of it.

    Johnson's words and actions during these last three months will come home to roost if he puts a foot wrong.

  • The NHS is a lumbering most inefficient organisation yet it is the best we have got, and admired worldwide. Treatment is available that does not depend on the ability to pay

    Critics forget what it was like before it was created

    Under the Tories for the past ten years it has been badly underfunded which has led to the present difficulties, a situation Johnson has recognised and promised massive investment to rectify

    Bryan, like you no doubt I used the NHS under many governments, and it's always been useless. Prior to the last Labour government losing the general election I had a problem. Every time I needed an appointment with a specialist it took three months, it then took 6 months for an operation. I eventually had two operations on my testicles only to find out I had a bad back. I am not suggesting things have got better, but they also haven't got worse. If every penny of our taxes went into the NHS it still wouldn't be enough. You advocate the lock down, and any future extension, meanwhile four super hospitals could be built EVERY DAY with what it is costing the economy. Ultimately, we have 67 million people using an NHS service designed for 50 million. Pumping more money isn't the answer, partial privatisation and a halt to immigrants using it probably is.

    The intelligent are being oppressed so the stupid don't get offended

  • The Tories tried to kill it at birth and failed. Ever since then they've been trying to get rid of it. Labour have made mistakes in its administration too.

    You are right to say that the Conservatives did not support the creation of the NHS at the time. However, I am not sure where you get the idea from that they have been trying to get rid of it after it was set up. Surely, had they wanted to do that, they had plenty of opportunity to do so during their lengthy periods of rule between 1950-1964 and 1979-1997. There has been absolutely no evidence that the present government want to privatise it either. Where do you get these views from?

    The Tories want to get rid of it but can't because whenever they have had the will and the opportunity, they have known they'd be signing their death warrant for the next election.

    One good reason why they wouldn't get rid of the NHS, presented in your own words.

    I am in no doubt that the Tories were planning to sell the NHS out to the USA as part of a trade deal. American Big Pharma wants to take control of the nation's medication and American insurance companies were licking their lips at the thought of a potential 66 million new customers to exploit. I am in no doubt at all that that was going to be the price of our hormone injected beef and chlorinated chicken.

    Well, you should be, because again, there is no evidence to support this claim. Corbyn's clumsy attempt to sell that lie failed miserably. I don't buy it. The public doesn't buy it.

    And by the way, we will not be getting chlorinated chicken - this has been confirmed by the UK government. As for hormone injected beef, I'm not sure where the government stands on that, but if it considers that to be undesirable, that will become a condition of any trade deal with the US. We are perfectly able to set the standards for our imported goods, as other countries, including the EU, do.

    Coronavirus has put any sale of the NHS back by at least ten years. Minimum. ....and only then if there is a Tory government. Between now and then, the government is going to have to do something that they'll choke on. They're going to have to fund it. And smile while doing it.

    I have no doubt that there are a few people on the right of the Conservative Party who would privatise health, but it's a minority view. It is not on the government's agenda and won't be in the future. Private sector involvement may well happen, and there's nothing wrong with that, but wholesale privatisation is not anywhere on the horizon.

  • I have no idea why you think any party wants to sell the NHS. Perhaps you believe some ridiculous unfounded propaganda put out by a certain political party. However, I think you may find that some of the best public health services in the world are a combination of public and private services. Frankly I am confused why anyone would have a problem with anything that works better than what we already have. I suppose it's some sort of socialist ideal ?

    The intelligent are being oppressed so the stupid don't get offended

  • You are right to say that the Conservatives did not support the creation of the NHS at the time. However, I am not sure where you get the idea from that they have been trying to get rid of it after it was set up. Surely, had they wanted to do that, they had plenty of opportunity to do so during their lengthy periods of rule between 1950-1964 and 1979-1997. There has been absolutely no evidence that the present government want to privatise it either. Where do you get these views from?

    One good reason why they wouldn't get rid of the NHS, presented in your own words.

    Well, you should be, because again, there is no evidence to support this claim. Corbyn's clumsy attempt to sell that lie failed miserably. I don't buy it. The public doesn't buy it.

    And by the way, we will not be getting chlorinated chicken - this has been confirmed by the UK government. As for hormone injected beef, I'm not sure where the government stands on that, but if it considers that to be undesirable, that will become a condition of any trade deal with the US. We are perfectly able to set the standards for our imported goods, as other countries, including the EU, do.

    I have no doubt that there are a few people on the right of the Conservative Party who would privatise health, but it's a minority view. It is not on the government's agenda and won't be in the future. Private sector involvement may well happen, and there's nothing wrong with that, but wholesale privatisation is not anywhere on the horizon.

    Re: My sections highlighted in red

    You don't really connect up the dots in your arguments sometimes, old chap.

    You have argued that they could have done away with the NHS in the lengthy periods in office, and then you agree with me when I said that had they done so they would have cut their own electoral wrists.

    Your second response denies the first.

    But rather than sell the NHS off wholesale at those times (and knew they couldn't do overtly) they instead attempted to kill it by the death of a thousand cuts. Selling off parts of it piecemeal or starving it of funding until it became so run down and inefficient that the usual Tory argument that "private enterprise is the only thing that works" would enable them to get their way in the end with a public worn down by the tactics of "starve and chip away".

    There is more than one way to skin a cat and the Tories have tried them all.

    First, the Conservatives have consistently underfunded the NHS. David Cameron always claimed the NHS was “ring-fenced” from cuts, but the balance sheet says otherwise: spending increases for the NHS slowed dramatically under austerity, down to an annual average of about 1 per cent between 2010 and 2015, compared with an annual average of 6 per cent between 1997 and 2010, under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

    Second, cuts that the Conservatives have made elsewhere – to social care (and look at the effect of Tory policies on care homes during COVID-19) and welfare, for example – have put increasing pressure on the NHS. More and more people are going to hospital: the number of visits to A&E rose 40% between 2003 and 2016. Once they get there, they are waiting longer and longer to be seen: the percentage of patients seen within four hours has fallen below 90 per cent in England.

    in the 1980s, the Conservatives outsourced cleaning and catering services, now run by companies like Interserve and Serco. Then, under New Labour (just for the sake of balance), the construction of new hospitals was privatised through disastrous Private Finance Initiatives (PFIs). Since then, administrative services have increasingly been outsourced by Labour and Tory alike, while more and more hospitals hire their more expensive equipment (such as MRI scanners) from private companies.

    The coalition government accelerated healthcare privatisation. The value of private contracts awarded in the NHS has nearly doubled over three years, from £1.9 billion in 2017 to £3.6 billion today. Physiotherapy, elderly care, even cancer services, are now all facing privatisation, and £15bn worth of services have been sold off in the last 5 years. David Rowland, of the Centre for Health and the Public Interest estimates that nearly 18% of NHS services are run by private providers.

    The result has been disastrous. The introduction of the profit motive into the NHS has worsened services and increased costs. There is evidence that rates of MRSA infection are nearly 50% higher in hospitals that outsource cleaning services than in those that don’t.

    Meanwhile, an attempt in Staffordshire to privatise cancer services had to be abandoned in the face of mounting costs.

    I haven't even scratched the surface of Tory scams over the years. I can come up with more. I really can, you know.

  • But Jenny, it was equally as bad under the last Labour government, I experienced it, and I know. Your simplistic argument is lack of funding, well that's not the answer. Go into any hospital in the country and watch the nurses huddle around the nurse station. On television the other night, about fifty NHS staff stood outside the hospital clapping their hands, so who was looking after all the ill? People say there are to many managers, I would argue there aren't enough. Our doctors and nurses aren't angels, they are people doing their jobs, some well and some not.

    As a socialist greeny person you are particularly keen on immigration, and I respect your views even if my opinions differ. Now, your complaining the NHS doesn't have enough money to cope with the present population, but you are keen on the population expanding by means of further immigration. Don't give me all the the codswallop about a large % of the NHS being immigrants, because I am not proposing we don't let in the ones we need need, yes, cherry picking. Our NHS system is rubbish because the staff aren't being organised properly, and we have far to many people using it. At present we could build 4 new super hospitals every day with what the lock down is costing us, but even if we had put that money into the NHS I have the feeling I still wouldn't be able to get a doctors appointment next week.

    Remember what then telecommunications industry was like prior to privatisation, so imagine how good the NHS could be if it were run by professionals and became competitive

    The intelligent are being oppressed so the stupid don't get offended

  • The NHS has been getting steadily worse over the years under both political parties. The problem is, we cannot continue to afford to put more and more money into it. Root and branch reform is long overdue, but the problem is how to go about it.

    Have you told your great leader Boris that?

    He doesn't seem to have listened

    Maybe you've swallowed the crap that the Torys have suddenly found a money tree

  • Have you told your great leader Boris that?

    He doesn't seem to have listened

    Maybe you've swallowed the crap that the Torys have suddenly found a money tree

    So would you have rather they did nothing and saved the money? I know your answer to that, it's NO. The government have got the country into massive debt because of a pandemic. I wouldn't normally borrow money, but if it were a life saving operation for my dog, I probably would. Prior to the pandemic the NHS had more than enough money, it's was badly spent, and the NHS needs reorganising. My belief is that it needs more active managers, less back ground managers, and a lot more doctors and nurses being trained, rather than relying on immigrants

    The intelligent are being oppressed so the stupid don't get offended

  • But Jenny, it was equally as bad under the last Labour government, I experienced it, and I know. Your simplistic argument is lack of funding, well that's not the answer. Go into any hospital in the country and watch the nurses huddle around the nurse station. On television the other night, about fifty NHS staff stood outside the hospital clapping their hands, so who was looking after all the ill? People say there are to many managers, I would argue there aren't enough. Our doctors and nurses aren't angels, they are people doing their jobs, some well and some not.

    As a socialist greeny person you are particularly keen on immigration, and I respect your views even if my opinions differ. Now, your complaining the NHS doesn't have enough money to cope with the present population, but you are keen on the population expanding by means of further immigration. Don't give me all the the codswallop about a large % of the NHS being immigrants, because I am not proposing we don't let in the ones we need need, yes, cherry picking. Our NHS system is rubbish because the staff aren't being organised properly, and we have far to many people using it. At present we could build 4 new super hospitals every day with what the lock down is costing us, but even if we had put that money into the NHS I have the feeling I still wouldn't be able to get a doctors appointment next week.

    Remember what then telecommunications industry was like prior to privatisation, so imagine how good the NHS could be if it were run by professionals and became competitive

    I don't deny that Labour have made mistakes in the running of the NHS. Read my post where it says: Labour have made mistakes in its administration too. Mostly, I believe, due to political pressures rather than any ideological reason. In Labour ideology, the NHS is the primary example of a state run service which is popular and has a direct and necessary benefit to the people. They have never wanted to get rid of it, they have just allowed their sense of purpose slide when faced with political pressure. Shamefully for them, at those times they put party before country.

    By no stretch of the imagination have I exonerated Labour of blame for the current malaise. Please read that passage in my post through again. I covered your point quite comprehensively I think.

    It is not a case of being "keen" on immigration. Rather, I accept it for what it is. Some people come here to work so they can build a better life for themselves. Is that not why Britons go abroad to work..? Because they can get well paid contracts that are not available in UK, and they often benefit from tax concessions too. it's worth their while to do so. This is human nature. And I think you'll find that the number of Britons who speak Spanish when they live in Spain is quite low. They have also installed Anglican churches in a Catholic country. The rise of English style pubs and fish and chip shops is quite significant. I don't see anything wrong in this, rather, it is no different to Muslims in Britain opening Halal butchers or building mosques and continuing to speak Urdu as a first language.

    It's to do with a cosmopolitan world. Nobody is "taking over" or "forcing their culture on the native population". It's just people giving themselves surroundings they feel comfortable in. And there is nothing wrong with it IMHO.

    I couldn't tell you what percentage of the NHS workforce is migrant labour, but I do know it is a significant proportion. Again, I accept this. These are people who are prepared to accept low pay and poor working conditions, but still provide the best service that they can. However, I did draw attention to contract cleaning companies performance. This shortcoming - in my opinion - is more to do with the profit motive driving poor working practices...., with staff de-motivated by the destruction of their work ethic by bosses who tell them to do the bare minimum in order to maximise profits.

    I don't mind medical staff taking a break during a long shift. The hours some of these people work are often an abuse of human endurance. They deserve a break some time from the relentless demands of the job with all the physical stresses and emotional strain of having to often watch people die on the table. In my early working career I was very quickly toughened up at the sharp end. I had to come up to scratch tout suite and it took its toll at times. Taking a step back to draw breath and get ready to go back in was a necessity.

    I can't speak for management practices, but if there are shortcomings then i agree that that is something that should be sorted out. Perhaps doctors, rather than expensive private management consultants should be asked how best to run, say, a busy A & E department in future...?

    I don't buy the argument that it is possible to build four super hospitals a day. That's a tad ambitious in my opinion, especially in the light of Boris Johnson telling us during the election campaign that he was going to build 40 new hospitals - while conveniently forgetting to tell us that the figure '40 new hospitals" really meant giving many existing hospitals a lick of paint or carrying out renovations.

    I still have to chuckle over the much trumpeted claim that the NHS was going to get 50'000 new nurses... although that number would include 19'000 existing nurses. Even Piers Morgan was able to drive a coach and horses through that one:

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    It takes a Tory election promise to make Piers Morgan likeable.... if only for a short while. ^^

    By the way.... how many of those 50'000 sorry, 31'000 new nurses have actually been recruited...?

  • 25,377

    The intelligent are being oppressed so the stupid don't get offended

  • I apologise for not reading all the posts and have only read the OP's first post. As someone who has had multiple operations (mostly orthopaedic) and has spent time in a few different London hospitals I will say that the NHS is fucked. The only good thing about the NHS is the spirit of the NHS, those on the frontline doing the work. The Doctors, Nurses and Domiciliary staff all do the best they can within the constraints and pressures they are under mostly caused by bad management and political influence. As things stand it's mostly luck of the draw as to the kind of treatment and quality of treatment you get. Everything is about cost saving and cutting corners now yet they still waste money on needless stuff and expensive agency staff.

    They could save so much money in supplies alone. Say for example one trust orders 5000 gloves from one company and another trust orders 10,000 gloves from another company, how about combining that to one order from one company at a discounted price for buying in a bigger bulk. The NHS needs a huge central stores somewhere. Stock up like we had ammo dumps during the war. FFS they still send HR staff out to buy a box of pens from Ryman out of petty cash. I saw this on one of those catch the scammer programmes on TV along with the NHS fraud squad who who checking through receipts. There was one guy in charge of buying medical supplies and he owned the company under a different name where he was ordering supplies from and fiddling the numbers so in affect was pocketing tax payers NHS money.

    The NHS needs completely restructuring. It's mostly bad / mismanagement that is it's biggest problem along with lack of or slow communications across the various departments and services. They need to abandon the different trusts and centralise all communications and logistics. They also need to get rid of all the micro management systems in place. Hospitals shouldn't be ordering and restocking their own supplies as an independent trust. There should be a central stores and logistics where stock can be ordered from and delivered to each hospital. It needs structuring like a military operation with a hierarchical system in place that works across the whole of the NHS.

    As for mental health you don't get help until you have either attempted suicide or have hurt someone. Other than that you are passed from one department to another back and forth with maybe some counselling thrown in at some stage if your lucky. It's more about just throwing pills at people and hope for the best. If one kind of pill does not work then try something else. More often than not they can make things worse and lock someone into a state of pill popping along with all the side effects.

  • You have argued that they could have done away with the NHS in the lengthy periods in office, and then you agree with me when I said that had they done so they would have cut their own electoral wrists.


    Your second response denies the first.

    No, it doesn't. Both statements are true. But that doesn't mean that if they had the opportunity, they would privatise it.

    This is just the same old socialist scare story that runs riot every election. Weaponising the NHS. If that was true, the Conservatives would not have waited over 70 years to do it. All electable political parties want to preserve the NHS. Only the Conservatives appear to want to make it more efficient, and most of the population would want that, surely?

  • in the 1980s, the Conservatives outsourced cleaning and catering services, now run by companies like Interserve and Serco. Then, under New Labour (just for the sake of balance), the construction of new hospitals was privatised through disastrous Private Finance Initiatives (PFIs). Since then, administrative services have increasingly been outsourced by Labour and Tory alike, while more and more hospitals hire their more expensive equipment (such as MRI scanners) from private companies.

    You've made my point for me, Jenny. Some privatisation has happened under both Labour and Conservatives, so please stop trying to politicise this.

    There is nothing wrong with privatising a service to make it run better and more efficiently. The problem with the NHS appears to be with procurement and management. The specification for a contract needs to be clear and precise. Then it has to be managed. The NHS seems to be pretty poor at doing this, and if cleaning leaves something to be desired, for example, the facilities managers should be picking this up and ensuring that the privatised company honours its contract.

    You've only got to look at the NHS computer systems to realise that NHS management are not at all good at this. The problem runs from top to bottom of management.

  • The introduction of the profit motive into the NHS has worsened services and increased costs

    ...Which demonstrates the extent of the mismanagement of the NHS. The rationale for privatisation is that the private sector takes its profits from a proportion of the savings achieved. The rest goes back to the service.

    I have seen this work for myself and I have made it happen, too. I'm afraid that management incompetence has given privatisation a bad name.

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