Should there be a second referendum on leaving the EU?

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  • And besides, how many people from western European countries go to work in the Eastern European ones where the wages are far lower. The movement only goes one way.

    Exactly. 3.5m Europeans in the UK, and only 1.5m UK citizens living in the other 27 countries, and many of those are retirees that don't take jobs away from the indigenous. How many EU citizens have retired to the UK?

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • I understand makemadam's points, but the ideal of each European country being equal in terms of wealth, would take a very long time, if at all, so there will always be disparities between the countries and freedom of movement will not change that. In fact, as you say Fidget, the poorer countries will just get poorer as their best people leave.

  • I disagree. Movement of people cannot compensate those countries that have the weaker economies. It just makes them weaker, as has been demonstrated.

    OK, so on this assumption freedom of movement has to be a good thing for the UK economy then? If it makes the countries people originate from poorer then by definition it is making the countries they're going to richer as the money doesn't just disappear.....

  • OK, so on this assumption freedom of movement has to be a good thing for the UK economy then? If it makes the countries people originate from poorer then by definition it is making the countries they're going to richer as the money doesn't just disappear.....

    That is true, so far as non-EU immigrants are concerned. They have to prove a minimum salary of £30,000, and their ability to support their family.

    Compare this to minimum wage EU immigrants with a family. Tax credits, child tax credits, Universal credits, and all the rest, plus the cost of educating their kids, NHS for all, etc. The support from the taxpayer far exceeds the tax/NI paid by the immigrants. These jobs should be filled by unemployed UK people, so we at least save unemployment benefit. It would be fairer if employers were given financial assistance from the taxpayer to employ the UK disabled who want to work, than bring in immigrant workers who need taxpayer assistance, and which indirectly gives the employer higher profits.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Many of the homeless in central London are from Eastern European countries. Perhaps they had jobs when they came here, but obviously something went wrong and they're on the streets. Not good for them, not good for us. The assumption that freedom of movement brings the brightest and best to our shores is not always the correct one.

    Freedom of movement can only work in a world where roughly everyone is the same, ie similar incomes, backgrounds, education etc.

  • Free movement of people affects all aspects of our life.

    As well as bringing the nessesary skills to a basically lazy country ( who’s benefits system is exploited world wide ) we have also seen crime with a taint for a different level of violence than our system is used to.

    Crashing out of the EU and it’s 4 chains rather than being crashed into from the EU is the perfect solution.

  • they can;t have a 2nd referendum unless they delay Brexit, and they can't delay Brexit unless the government puts forward new legislation. I agree that even though it isn't possible, it is downright undemocratic and an insult to the electorate.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • If Brexit happens, he can say that Labour honoured the vote and if the government delays Brexit, he can say Labour is honouring democracy by asking for another vote. Hedging his bets either way.

    A bit like May, he is trying to keep both sides happy. Unlike May, he doesn't need to do anything to achieve that.

  • So what has happened to the confidence that if no deal can be agreed by the end of March the UK will leave with no deal by default, some people were so confident and sure that is what would happen but now not so much, whereas I was and have always been sceptical and/or cynical of all those assurances, I have to admit that this was one occasion I would prefer to be wrong.

  • Labour are now backing a second ref UNLESS Mays deal is accepted by Parliament. They are also saying a second ref would mean a Brexit delay of over 12 months.

    If Brexit is delayed I hope every democracy supporting voter punishes Labour and the Tories in the May elections and votes for a Brexiter.

    Mark Twain — 'Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

  • Fidget, it's like some nightmare. They need to be hung by their private bits, the lot of them.

    So what has happened to the confidence that if no deal can be agreed by the end of March the UK will leave with no deal by default, some people were so confident and sure that is what would happen but now not so much, whereas I was and have always been sceptical and/or cynical of all those assurances, I have to admit that this was one occasion I would prefer to be wrong.

    Just about to read today's news, but seen the headline...X( and you're right, I'm wrong. I'm not confident now, at all.

  • Q1 How does democracy work when the Prime Minister can defy the majority will of democratically elected representatives (ie Parliament)?

    Q2 How can it be logical and sane to include in the referendum an option which is agreeable to the EU but which an overwhelming majority of those voting to leave consider is unacceptable and waters down the reason for leaving to such an extent that it becomes more accommodating to Remainers than Leavers?

    Q3 How long does a voting decision remain valid when the original assumptions behind Leaving have been overtaken by unexpected events or circumstances (including letting it be controlled by a Prime Minister who is mentally deranged)?

    Q4 How long does a referendum vote remain valid and enforceable when up-to-date current day research reveals that these unexpected events or circumstances will almost certainly produce a referendum outcome that is now practically certain to be in favour of Remaining?

    Q5 Why should Parliament honour an out-of-date referendum result that has almost certainly reversed, especially when the wailing and waning majority of Leavers are hellbent on leaving even though that is against the latest majority preference? How does that close-mindedness chime with any sane person's idea of democracy?

    Q6 Why is the founder of this forum, who likes on occasion to do a mini poll of forum members, reluctant or scared to instigate a poll which seeks answers to the above questions and, of course, reveals the preference between Remain versus Leave but stay in Customs Union versus Leave with no deal?

    Edited once, last by casablanca (February 28, 2019 at 5:07 PM).

  • Q5 Why should Parliament honour an out-of-date referendum result that has almost certainly reversed, especially when the wailing and waning majority of Leavers are hellbent on leaving even though that is against the latest majority preference? How that close-mindedness chime with any sane person's idea of democracy?

    Ok, I'll accept the bait on this one.:)

    As one of the wailers, we are all participated in a democratic vote and a majority voted to leave the EU. It is as simple as that.

  • We don't need a second referendum, what is needed is a vote by the public to decide whether parliament is fit for purpose, because I don't believe they are.

    spot on sir.

    Ok, I'll accept the bait on this one.:)

    As one of the wailers, we are all participated in a democratic vote and a majority voted to leave the EU. It is as simple as that.

    It appears the general election cycle will now have to change to 2-3 years MAXIMUM ,as all decisions made or enacted that far after a vote are now seemingly null and void as people have died and others are eligible to vote .

    HOW COULD WE OF BEEN SO STUPID FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF CENTURIES?

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